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Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Casey

John Higgins was one of those players who threatened to greatly underachieve. Until 2007 he had 1 World title, the same number as Dott, Ebdon and Doherty. Was this a true reflection on John’s talent? Certainly not, a baron period in the early 00’s when it was well published John like a good night out rather than an extra few hours on the practise table; threatened to derail his career.
Today we see a different John Higgins, he won his long awaited second World title in 2007 and followed that up with his third in 2009. In 2006 he added his 2nd Masters Crown and just last week won, one of the greatest matches of all time to lift his 3rd UK championship after a 10 year wait.
People often talk about Hendry v’s O’Sullivan, but in truth John Higgins is a lot closer to Ronnie than Ronnie is to Hendry, given this I can’t understand why so many Ronnie fans are up in arms at the mere mention of Higgins in the same breath as Ronnie.
For sure at the minute Ronnies career achievements are greater, of that there is no doubt. However over the last few years John has been closing the gap and it looks like he will continue to do so. In the last two years Ronnie has failed to life a major title whilst John has won a World and UK Championship.
They are now level on ranking titles and given Ronnie’s uncertainly over travel I think it’s more likely that John will finish his career with more in that column.
Standard of play, people often talk about Ronnies second session against Hendry at the 08 WC. Ronnie produced his best ever snooker and it was magical, snooker cannot be played any better. Equally snooker cannot be played any better than John Higgins 400+ points without reply against Ronnie in the GP final of 06
Unlike Ronnie and Hendry, the gap between John and Ronnie is that close by the end of this season John could overshadow O’Sullivan’s title achievements.
The World Championship is the panicle of the sport, it is what defines true greatness within the sport. Unlike the Ronnie/Hendry debate, era cannot come into this as they both turned pro at the same time, currently John has a slightly better record at the crucible, but its not enough to overshadow the other aspects of what Ronnie has achieved.
However if John were to add a 4th World Title compared to Ronnies 3, well it would be more clear that John’s success would be propelled. Some people forget about the significance of the World championship within the sport, masters and Uk’s are all and good but it’s the World’s that define your greatness.
Just look at Matthew Stevens, I am sure you wouldn’t have to ask him twice to swap his Masters and UK titles for one World title.
There are certain departments John will not overtake Ronnie in
Masters
Centuries
Non-ranking titles
The masters aside, so what about the rest? Centuries are great but they don’t but titles on the board. Just ask mark Williams who was one frame away from winning the second biggest title in the sport without making one century.
Head to head – when it comes down to the important matches John seems to have the edge with a lead of 15-9 in Ranking and Masters matches.
We are blessed to still have these two greats at the top of the game, but let’s not forget the gap is closing.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby GJ

he is ahead of ronald IMO

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Casey

GJtheaussiestud wrote:he is ahead of ronald IMO


Not yet imo, but it will be very close by the time they both retire.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby SnookerFan

In terms on natural talent, or maybe talent at all, I think Ronnie has it. The problem with Ronnie is his dedication lets him down. Did Ronnie lose against Bingham because Bingham has more talent? Or because Bingham is a better player? No. He lost because he really wasn't up for the game. That's understandable in this game, with his father out and marital problems etc, especially his career the way it is. But there are many many other times he hasn't seen to be with it during a match. Some might say it's his right, but also I think it's an argument to take it consideration when talking about the all time greats in a sport. Greatness can be definded in many ways, by talent, by achievement, by innovating new ways to play. But Ronnie doesn't always have the dedication a Davis or a Hendry had. It's his outrageous natural talent that has kept him at or close to the top of the All Time Greats List. The fact he could win the PL with his eyes closed (only one game a week, then finals weekend) and consitently gets to the final of The Masters (easie for him to get home and relax between games) shows that in terms of skill, he's head and shoulders above anybody else. In terms of heart, dedication, consistency, there are many better.

For a long time, the dedication could be said of Higgins. There is no excuse for a player to be constantly out getting drunk with his friends during a season. Yes, everybody is allowed a bit of fun, or the odd break, but he could easily take a month off to pub-crawl after The Crucible, and still get the practice in before the first event of the new season. Again, I'm not one to lecture on people's drinking, mine is bad enough, but if you don't put the hours in, you don't get the rewards. I think after winning the 1998 Crucible event, Higgins thought he was the daddy. It took him a few years to realise winning one World Title doesn't mean you'll win it again. Or anything else. Dedication, practice, skill and perhaps some luck wins you the first one. You know what wins you the second one? Dedication, practice, skill and perhaps some luck. You don't automatically get to the business end once you've won the first time.

I think John Higgins certainly belongs close to Ronnie in terms of All Time Greatness, though it's subjective. As said, greatness isn't something measurable. Some hail Hendry as the greatest, as he was the greatest ever winner. Some hail Ronnie as the most naturally talented. Some hail Alex Higgins, because he played the game in a way that had never been played, and thus invented a new way of playing. Whoever you call the greatest though, it's obvious John Higgins should be amongs the nominees for Greatest Of All Time.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Roland

I think O'Sullivan in his resurgence of a couple of years ago and then Higgins since have played the best snooker I've ever witnessed. They are as good as each other.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Monique

SnookerFan wrote:In terms on natural talent, or maybe talent at all, I think Ronnie has it. The problem with Ronnie is his dedication lets him down. Did Ronnie lose against Bingham because Bingham has more talent? Or because Bingham is a better player? No. He lost because he really wasn't up for the game. That's understandable in this game, with his father out and marital problems etc, especially his career the way it is. But there are many many other times he hasn't seen to be with it during a match. Some might say it's his right, but also I think it's an argument to take it consideration when talking about the all time greats in a sport. Greatness can be definded in many ways, by talent, by achievement, by innovating new ways to play. But Ronnie doesn't always have the dedication a Davis or a Hendry had. It's his outrageous natural talent that has kept him at or close to the top of the All Time Greats List. The fact he could win the PL with his eyes closed (only one game a week, then finals weekend) and consitently gets to the final of The Masters (easie for him to get home and relax between games) shows that in terms of skill, he's head and shoulders above anybody else. In terms of heart, dedication, consistency, there are many better.

For a long time, the dedication could be said of Higgins. There is no excuse for a player to be constantly out getting drunk with his friends during a season. Yes, everybody is allowed a bit of fun, or the odd break, but he could easily take a month off to pub-crawl after The Crucible, and still get the practice in before the first event of the new season. Again, I'm not one to lecture on people's drinking, mine is bad enough, but if you don't put the hours in, you don't get the rewards. I think after winning the 1998 Crucible event, Higgins thought he was the daddy. It took him a few years to realise winning one World Title doesn't mean you'll win it again. Or anything else. Dedication, practice, skill and perhaps some luck wins you the first one. You know what wins you the second one? Dedication, practice, skill and perhaps some luck. You don't automatically get to the business end once you've won the first time.

I think John Higgins certainly belongs close to Ronnie in terms of All Time Greatness, though it's subjective. As said, greatness isn't something measurable. Some hail Hendry as the greatest, as he was the greatest ever winner. Some hail Ronnie as the most naturally talented. Some hail Alex Higgins, because he played the game in a way that had never been played, and thus invented a new way of playing. Whoever you call the greatest though, it's obvious John Higgins should be amongs the nominees for Greatest Of All Time.


Agreed and so should Mark Williams who is a very, very clever and naturally talented player but very laid back and who maybe lost interest for a while after he had done it all.
People are different. Players are different. Fans are different and that's why fans have different favourites: it all depends on what is important to them, what gives them the thrill or the pleasure from their sport or game.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Casey

Monique, Indeed Mark Williams is extremely intelligent around the snooker table. Which other player on the tour would have reached the UK final without being near top form in the ball to the point he didn’t make one century.
The last three frames he got against Murphy were pure genies, Murphy had won five in a row and was potting everything, Williams was just too clever for him the in end.
Its a shame he lost focus for those years because we could have achieved so much more. Could still win a 3rd World title all the same...

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Wildey

case_master wrote:Monique, Indeed Mark Williams is extremely intelligent around the snooker table. Which other player on the tour would have reached the UK final without being near top form in the ball to the point he didn’t make one century.
The last three frames he got against Murphy were pure genies, Murphy had won five in a row and was potting everything, Williams was just too clever for him the in end.
Its a shame he lost focus for those years because we could have achieved so much more. Could still win a 3rd World title all the same...

intelligence had nothing to do with mark reaching the final .

cant comment on his Mark Davis win but against Hendry it was a case of who can best miss pots by a few yards and very similar against Murphy until from somewhere he won 3 frames on the trot through finding his long pot range it was not intelligent snooker it was just form kicked in.

had he missed some of those long pots he got in the final 3 frames no intellect in the world would have stopped murphy winning.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Monique

Yes Case but probably it wasn't THAT important to Mark J. at the time. Just like it isn't THAT important for Ronnie now because all what is going on in his private life, and has been going on in the past also. While it is VERY important for Higgins right now because he feels he needs to redeem himself and restore his pride and reputation. And it always was, stil is VERY important for Hendry because that's how he is as a person.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby SnookerFan

Pity we don't have the rankings yet, I want to know when Higgins could play Mark at The Crucible. :wild2: Obviously, though, their big game in Blackpool is yet to come. Surely the highlight of any snooker fan's season. :john:

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby gallantrabbit

You could spin a coin between them to be honest with Williams a fair way behind overall.
Where Higgins wins is in his head and Ronnie wins cos you know you're watching a genius on his day.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Tubberlad

To put it simply, I actually agree with the title, but O'Sullivan is still firmly the second best player of all time in my opinion.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Casey

thetubberlad wrote:To put it simply, I actually agree with the title, but O'Sullivan is still firmly the second best player of all time in my opinion.


Thats a very fair point!

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby jojo

i would still put o sullivan in front of higgins but both have a strong chance to add to their titles

really no matter how good they are they shouldnt be because the younger players of today who are in their prime should be stopping these older players from winning

but they not cut the mustard yet they have too much of a one dimensional game much of a muchness and not much bottle when things not going their way

mark selby for one has shown if you stand up to ronnie o sullivan mix and match and show balls then you can beat him neil robertson also shown this with john higgins as has ding

but the others no they been a let down to be honest so in all fairness this thread might be a bit premature higgins and o sullivan can still battle it out for the next few years who is going to be the greater player as i cant see too many todays generation players standing in their way bar a few

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Bourne

Sonny wrote:I think O'Sullivan in his resurgence of a couple of years ago and then Higgins since have played the best snooker I've ever witnessed. They are as good as each other.

Summed it up for me. But given their records are so close, I don't see why people get so angry when someone says the other is better, it's all opinions anyway, there's no extra prize-money or ranking points if enough fans think you're better than someone else. Both have given us some immense matches over the past 10-15 years, including against eachother. Higgins has unquestionably been the better player since 08 but who's to say O'Sullivan won't have a massive 2/3 years and Higgins falters, will everyone's opinion on their careers be altered just by those few seasons ?

Judge them at the end of their careers, they've both got a long way to go yet, both are awesome though <ok> <cool>

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Casey

jojo wrote:i would still put o sullivan in front of higgins but both have a strong chance to add to their titles

really no matter how good they are they shouldnt be because the younger players of today who are in their prime should be stopping these older players from winning

but they not cut the mustard yet they have too much of a one dimensional game much of a muchness and not much bottle when things not going their way

mark selby for one has shown if you stand up to ronnie o sullivan mix and match and show balls then you can beat him neil robertson also shown this with john higgins as has ding

but the others no they been a let down to be honest so in all fairness this thread might be a bit premature higgins and o sullivan can still battle it out for the next few years who is going to be the greater player as i cant see too many todays generation players standing in their way bar a few


Yes the likes of Maguire and Murphy haven’t lived up to their early potential in many ways.
From the younger crowd Ding still has the chance to enter into ‘great’ territory. He already has two UK titles and when you consider up until last week that was the same number Higgins and Williams had, shows how good that it.
Obviously his World championship performances are the big sticking point but he has time on his side and hopefully he can break this second round block.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Bourne

Ding is only 23, hard to remember that, and next year will be his 5th go ... he's got plenty of time on his hands. <ok>

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby jojo

i didnt like what the crowd say to ding in the masters final they were disgusting dirty chameleons not all of them but a small minority enough to hurt ding they got what they wanted

i was there and didnt like some of the stuff they saying about ding chink this and chink that i hated it and personally i think this took a lot out of him

he just a young man in a completely foreign country eyes of the world on him and that took a lot out of him

i didnt mind who won i just wanted a close match but a small section of the crowd hurt ding that day and it also unfair on o sullivan who played some brilliant stuff

so with ding i dont know what the score with him is if he can properly recover and fulfill the promise he first showed before that wembley final in 2007

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby Bourne

jojo wrote:i didnt like what the crowd say to ding in the masters final they were disgusting dirty bar stewards not all of them but a small minority enough to hurt ding they got what they wanted

i was there and didnt like some of the stuff they saying about ding racist censor this and racist censor that i hated it and personally i think this took a lot out of him

he just a young man in a completely foreign country eyes of the world on him and that took a lot out of him

i didnt mind who won i just wanted a close match but a small section of the crowd hurt ding that day and it also unfair on o sullivan who played some brilliant stuff

so with ding i dont know what the score with him is if he can properly recover and fulfill the promise he first showed before that wembley final in 2007

First post of yours here that i've agreed with <ok>

He still hasn't beaten O'Sullivan (at least in a ranking tournament) since that match so I think he needs to do that to lay some demons to rest.

Re: Higgins closing the gap!

Postby SnookerFan

jojo wrote:i didnt like what the crowd say to ding in the masters final they were disgusting dirty chameleons not all of them but a small minority enough to hurt ding they got what they wanted

i was there and didnt like some of the stuff they saying about ding chink this and chink that i hated it and personally i think this took a lot out of him

he just a young man in a completely foreign country eyes of the world on him and that took a lot out of him

i didnt mind who won i just wanted a close match but a small section of the crowd hurt ding that day and it also unfair on o sullivan who played some brilliant stuff

so with ding i dont know what the score with him is if he can properly recover and fulfill the promise he first showed before that wembley final in 2007


For all your hear about The Master's atmosphere, the fans can be a bloody nightmare. Especially during Ronnie games. I was dragged to Ronnie O'Sullivan vs Stephen Maguire one year at The Masters. Even though I'm not a fan of Maguire, he was treated pretty shoddily, I felt. It wasn't as bad as the Ding affair, but every time Ronnie potted there was a roar of applause, and plenty of cheering. Maguire got no noise whatsoever, other then me clapping. Because I feel if you have a clap a good shot, even if it's not for who you are rooting for rule, it should apply across the board. The only noise Maguire elicited was when he missed, and people applauded. It was actually quite embarrassing.

Maguire potted the black to win the match to about 30-seconds of total, stunned silence, and then the sound of everybody leaving. It was a real shame, really.