Post a reply

Black and pink need to draw

Postby Pat2203

Hi guys tonight playing dad whom was winning with black and pink remaining !, I pot pink now need black to draw I miss the pot, he misses the pot but white goes in with black still on the table, the 7 penalty points give us an equal points score!, he says we must respot black however I see it as the frame has become winnable now by either player and the only thing that must happen white in the “D” and a respot will not now be needed as we are drawing and 7 points still remain ....help please

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby Andre147

If your dad was 7 points up with only black left and fouls, black must go to it's own spot, cue ball in hand, and you must make the coin toss to see who breaks, and whoever wins the toss has the option to break himself or let his opponent make the break.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby rekoons

That strikes me as odd, why does the black need to be spotted when it is still on the table and it's the white that went in off?

We've been doing it wrong several times then...

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby chengdufan

When you are down to the black, a pot or any type of foul ends the frame. So, whatever the score is at that point is the end of frame score. If the scores are level, it goes to a respotted black.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby SnookerEd25

When the black is the only object ball remaining on the table, any foul ends the game irrespective of the score. If the scores are tied, the black is re-spotted and the cue-ball struck from the D.

The reason for this is, while there is one or more object ball on the table, an infinite amount of penalty points can in theory be obtained by hiding the cue-ball behind the black and striker failing to hit the pink. In effect, even at 100pts behind you *could* win the frame in this manner. With only one (object) ball on the table, there are no other balls to hide the cue-ball behind & thus, in theory, no penalty points to be gained.

This question crops up a lot on here, and the best way of remembering the rule of thumb is in the phrase ‘foul on the black always ends the frame’ (when black is the last object ball).

Hope this helps to clear this up.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby Pat2203

I don’t get it as after the points are given for the foul it’s now level on points and the black is still in play why does it need re spotting and not playing from the rested position which should be an advantage after the foul

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby Andre147

Pat2203 wrote:I don’t get it as after the points are given for the foul it’s now level on points and the black is still in play why does it need re spotting and not playing from the rested position which should be an advantage after the foul


It doesn't stay in it's position because the points are now level, therefore it goes back to it's own spot.

It's not an advantage, otherwise if the black stayed on the edge of the pocket the opponent would have a very easy shot.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby acesinc

Pat2203 wrote:I don’t get it as after the points are given for the foul it’s now level on points and the black is still in play why does it need re spotting and not playing from the rested position which should be an advantage after the foul


Hi Pat. There is really nothing to "get" about it. It simply is what the rule is and has been for a very long time, probably since very near the point in time when the Game of Snooker was invented. You may as well ask, "Why does the sun rise in the East in the morning? Why can't it rise in the South around, oh, say, teatime?" It just is the way it is. We can speculate why the original framers of the Rules decided to go this way, but there is no real reason to do so. I think they came to the correct conclusion. The actual written Rule is here, Section 3., Rule 4.:

"4. End of Frame, Game or Match
(a) When Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the first pot or infringement ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal; and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant."

It then goes on to say how the Black is respotted and lots drawn as required. So the bolded part there is exactly what SnookerEd is saying to remember....when Black is the only ball on the table, the first pot or foul ENDS THE FRAME. At that time, either Player A has more points, or Player B has more points, or the scores are level. If the last, then spot Black, ball in hand White, flip a coin for the opening stroke.

I once played a tournament where something very near to this happened. It didn't end well. It was the deciding frame in fact. I was losing by 4 points and my opponent was playing at the final Black, one of those shots to cut the ball into a pocket, but the White would be heading toward a pocket as well. A proper player would see it coming like a slow train in the distance. I thought quietly to myself, "Don't do it. You will be sorry." Of course, he scratched ending the frame and match. I extended my hand and said, "Hard lines, a well played match." And he refused to shake my hand and tried to hand the cue ball to me saying he could still win with the points left on the table. You can imagine the rest of the conversation, but at the end, I simply told him to ask anyone in the room, that time at which there were maybe 20 or 25 people. He went round the room to five or six people and got the same response all around, End Of Frame. He came back toward me absolutely steaming and said, "I have been playing tournaments for twenty-five years and never heard of anything like this!" Packed up his things and walked out in a huff. I never received the cordiality of a handshake.

The Rules are what they are and for very good reason. Occasionally something is not perfect so the committee will get together to discuss, try to tweak the Rules a bit to make them better than they were before. Don't hold your breath waiting for this particular Rule to change anytime soon....it won't. As a player, learn and understand the Rules well. Don't be the bitter fellow that storms out of a venue muttering how everyone except him is an idiot.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby Pat2203

Acesinc

I agree with the rule but let’s just say black is over the pocket I need it to draw he needs it to win he gets for a simple tap in and boom nudges whit ball with tip the table has now turned and gave me a sure victory with same tap in!, but as you after the opponents first nudge on white ball all advantage has been lost and the black is spotted just seems odd to me but rules are rules I guess !

What happens if black ball remains and I need it to draw but I foul does it still require a respot ??

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby acesinc

Pat2203 wrote:Acesinc

I agree with the rule but let’s just say black is over the pocket I need it to draw he needs it to win he gets for a simple tap in and boom nudges whit ball with tip the table has now turned and gave me a sure victory with same tap in!, but as you after the opponents first nudge on white ball all advantage has been lost and the black is spotted just seems odd to me but rules are rules I guess !

What happens if black ball remains and I need it to draw but I foul does it still require a respot ??


If you are truly new to the forum Pat then you may not know yet, but I tend to be a long poster. Probably most often say much more than is required for a circumstance. So it's a Friday afternoon now, I have a few minutes to spare so I will make another attempt at an "explanation". It won't be a true explanation of course, as what follows is just my own opinion, nothing more.

In order to know the "why" of this particular Rule, it would be necessary to build a time machine and go back to the very early days, perhaps 120, 130 years or more when this Rule was likely first implemented. Only the person or persons responsible at that time can give you their rationale behind the rule.

But I will say this. In order for a rule to be a "good" rule, it will need to have two characteristics. Maybe more, but this is all that is in my head at the moment; maybe Andre can add something. 1) The rule must be easy to understand for everyone involved: referees, players, spectators. In many games/sports, there are contentious rules that often fail to meet this criteria as well as they should. Snooker also has a couple problematic rules in my opinion. 2) The Rules should be equitable to both players/sides. In a manner of speaking, the punishment should fit the crime. Or "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".

I suspect when the original Rules of Snooker were being postulated and formalized, then the question probably arose among the committee, "I say, a player may wish to concede a frame at some point, but if he does not, well then, when is the frame actually finished?" (No intent to be sexist in this modern PC world, but back in those days, ladies playing the game was unheard of.) And chances are the answer was, "Well, obviously.....when there are no balls left on the baize with which to score!" (Speech was much more formal then, and you should hear these words in your head in a haughty dialect.)

Quite quickly, the problem would have been realized that if a player losing by more than seven points decides to play on hoping for fouls when only the Black ball was left, the frame may never be completed. With careful safety play and the futile hope that the leading player might just foul eventually, a frame could continue indefinitely. It would make no sense to allow this to continue. Therefore, it would be necessary to DEFINE the end of the frame so that no one could argue with that precise point in time that WAS the end of the frame.

I suspect they may have tried a few iterations before settling on what we now know to be the End of Frame, that is, when the Black is the only object ball remaining on the table, the very next instance of a Pot or a Foul means that this frame has indeed, without doubt come to its final end and finish.

Except of course, sometimes it doesn't. Such as your case, Pat. But really, in the rare case that the final foul or pot results in the scores being level, it doesn't matter, the frame is indeed over exactly as it is defined in the Rules. The only problem is that a winner of the frame has not yet been determined. But the frame is still over. The definition of the Rule that defines the end of the frame is very easy to understand, it satisfies the first characteristic. It is a very specific nanosecond point in time at which the End of the Frame occurred. No argument.

Now it is time to talk about that second characteristic of a "good" rule. I like to use analogies. Resetting the Black ball to finish a drawn frame is nothing more than what is often called "overtime" in other games. So imagine a basketball game where a buzzer beater shot in the last second levels the score. Basketball cannot end in a tie (at least not as far as I know), so this situation must be resolved. How should it be done? Well, how about free throws? Let the home team take the first free throw....if it goes in, they win the game. Does that sound "equitable" to you?

Obviously not. the resolution of a "tie" must be one in which neither player or side has a discernible advantage to win the game or frame. It should be extended over a long enough period with chances given to both teams to display their skills to demonstrate that they are deserving to be the victor in this endeavour today.

And you don't do that by potting a Black ball that is perched in the jaws of a pocket in the overtime period. To win a frame of snooker that way would be no different than the home team sinking a simple free throw to win the basketball game.
_________________

As for your last question, I trust you already know the answer to your own question. The frame ended the INSTANT the Black was fouled. Was the winner determined by a difference in score at that instant? Or are the scores level?

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby Pat2203

Thankyou very interesting indeed although having spoken to others they have said the same as me and the black racist as still in play so next pot or foul wins , I will go with your explanation and it’s good to be humble for my father so again thankyou

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby rekoons

acesinc wrote:I tend to be a long poster .... So it's a Friday afternoon now, I have a few minutes to spare so I will make another attempt at an "explanation".


Image

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby acesinc

rekoons wrote:
acesinc wrote:I tend to be a long poster .... So it's a Friday afternoon now, I have a few minutes to spare so I will make another attempt at an "explanation".


Image


pmsl
rofl rofl rofl

I will add something about the topic but I promise to keep it reasonably short for those with the ADD of the Internet Age...

Back in my club in Harrogate, we had a simple tradition which I have carried over to my club which illustrates this point precisely and it is as follows. When a frame has played out and the Black ball is the only object ball remaining, AND THE DIFFERENCE IN SCORES IS LESS THAN SEVEN POINTS, then probably everyone knows that this is termed as a Black Ball Frame. At this stage, the actual score of the frame is rendered moot. It simply does not matter. The frame has become nothing more than as a frame of 9-Ball in that there is a KEY BALL which will win the frame for the player who pots it. It doesn't matter if that ball is valued at 7 points or 100, or a million. EITHER PLAYER just needs to pot THAT ball to win the frame. Therefore, the tradition is that in this circumstance, the scoreboard resets to zero and the announcement is declared, "Black Ball Frame." This makes it crystal clear to both players, next pot or foul ends the frame. If the difference in score is exactly seven when only Black remains, then the scoreboard stays as is with current score because there is NOT a key ball that will win the frame for EITHER player yet. After that Black is fouled or scored by either player, the scoreboard is reset, whether because the winner is now decided or because it has become a re-spotted Black "overtime" situation. Clacking the sliders and announcing, "Black ball frame!" makes it very clear.....don't do anything stupid, like feathering and touching White, or rubbing a ball with your elbow, or going in off.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby acesinc

Image

Here is one that nearly everyone will get checked wrong when the test paper is returned. Including myself not so long ago. Frame situation Player A is winning by 2 points and is playing at the final Pink in the sequence. Pots it and so is now leading by 8 points. He doesn't need to, but he goes ahead and plays at the Black because it gives him potential for a personal lifetime high break.......and fouls, White going in off.

Nearly everyone reading that paragraph being the opponent would leap out of their chair thinking that, "Yes, now I have a chance to win this frame!"

Um......no. The frame was over at the instant of the foul on Black to officially End the Frame. At that time, Player A was now leading by 1 point instead of 8, and so Player A goes down in the Snooker History Books as the victor of that frame.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby Badsnookerplayer

If I need a snooker when on the colours I will always concede the frame in true Corinthian spirit.

For those less educated, Corinthians were an amateur football club based in London.

From Wikipedia:

"The club was famed for its ethos of "sportsmanship, fair play, and playing for the love of the game".Corinthian Spirit, still understood as the highest standard of sportsmanship, is often associated with the side. This spirit was famously summed up in their attitude to penalties; "As far as they were concerned, a gentleman would never commit a deliberate foul on an opponent. So, if a penalty was awarded against the Corinthians, their goalkeeper would stand aside, lean languidly on the goalpost and watch the ball being kicked into his own net. If the Corinthians themselves won a penalty, their captain took a short run-up and gave the ball a jolly good whack, chipping it over the crossbar."

I think there were some people in Greece who picked up on this and copied it.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby SnookerEd25

Badsnookerplayer wrote:If I need a snooker when on the colours I will always concede the frame in true Corinthian spirit.


That’s not Corinthian spirit; that’s just plain daft.

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby Badsnookerplayer

SnookerEd25 wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:If I need a snooker when on the colours I will always concede the frame in true Corinthian spirit.


That’s not Corinthian spirit; that’s just plain daft.

It's how I roll SnookerEd

Re: Black and pink need to draw

Postby SnookerEd25

“never dribble the ass’s milk on a Tuesday”

I’ll give a point to anyone who identifies the quote