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Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Iranu

Johnny Bravo wrote:But Selbo has won it 3 times and Robbo is better than him when both are at their best.

Well that’s probably true, although I’d say it’s closer than you think. But “at their best” is meaningless. Players are almost never at their best.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby badtemperedcyril

Johnny Bravo wrote:Selbo is not a heavyweight, he's a cruiserweight who got lucky. :td:
Spoken like a true Ronnie fan! <doh>

In the last thirty years, Selby's record can be bettered by only Hendry, O'Sullivan, Higgins and just about Williams - he can't be THAT lucky! Selby's quality of opponents in major finals has also been arguably tougher compared to his rivals.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby TheRocket

For clarification. Robertson has a leading H2H against Selby in the main tournaments. 11 of the 19 meetings Selby won took place at the Championship League.

I think its obvious that both ,Robertson and especially Trump have a better A-game than Selby. They have played to a level in certain matches which Selby can't get to.

However. We also know Robertson has a habit of overthinking and making things complicated for himself which has cost him a lot while with Judd it took him a very long time to fulfil his potential. I'm glad he is doing it now though.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Holden Chinaski

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:Selbo is not a heavyweight, he's a cruiserweight who got lucky. :td:
Spoken like a true Ronnie fan! <doh>

In the last thirty years, Selby's record can be bettered by only Hendry, O'Sullivan, Higgins and just about Williams - he can't be THAT lucky! Selby's quality of opponents in major finals has also been arguably tougher compared to his rivals.

It's just Johnny. Most Ronnie fans know Selby is an all-time great.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Iranu

TheRocket wrote:For clarification. Robertson has a leading H2H against Selby in the main tournaments. 11 of the 19 meetings Selby won took place at the Championship League.

I think its obvious that both ,Robertson and especially Trump have a better A-game than Selby. They have played to a level in certain matches which Selby can't get to.

However. We also know Robertson has a habit of overthinking and making things complicated for himself which has cost him a lot while with Judd it took him a very long time to fulfil his potential. I'm glad he is doing it now though.

I don’t think Robbo’s A game is that much better than Selby’s A game, to be honest.

Judd has along with Ronnie and possibly Hendry (didn’t see enough of him live to be sure) the best A game ever.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Johnny Bravo

TheRocket wrote:For clarification. Robertson has a leading H2H against Selby in the main tournaments. 11 of the 19 meetings Selby won took place at the Championship League.

I think its obvious that both ,Robertson and especially Trump have a better A-game than Selby. They have played to a level in certain matches which Selby can't get to.

However. We also know Robertson has a habit of overthinking and making things complicated for himself which has cost him a lot while with Judd it took him a very long time to fulfil his potential. I'm glad he is doing it now though.

Well said <ok>

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Johnny Bravo

Holden Chinaski wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:Selbo is not a heavyweight, he's a cruiserweight who got lucky. :td:
Spoken like a true Ronnie fan! <doh>

In the last thirty years, Selby's record can be bettered by only Hendry, O'Sullivan, Higgins and just about Williams - he can't be THAT lucky! Selby's quality of opponents in major finals has also been arguably tougher compared to his rivals.

It's just Johnny. Most Ronnie fans know Selby is an all-time great.

I also know he's an ATG in terms of achievements, my point is Robbo has a higher A game, why is that so hard to understand ?!?

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby TheRocket

Iranu wrote:
TheRocket wrote:For clarification. Robertson has a leading H2H against Selby in the main tournaments. 11 of the 19 meetings Selby won took place at the Championship League.

I think its obvious that both ,Robertson and especially Trump have a better A-game than Selby. They have played to a level in certain matches which Selby can't get to.

However. We also know Robertson has a habit of overthinking and making things complicated for himself which has cost him a lot while with Judd it took him a very long time to fulfil his potential. I'm glad he is doing it now though.

I don’t think Robbo’s A game is that much better than Selby’s A game, to be honest.

Judd has along with Ronnie and possibly Hendry (didn’t see enough of him live to be sure) the best A game ever.


Yes I agree. Ronnie,Judd and Hendry have the best A-game. Its very very little margins between them.

When it comes to Selby it just shows you dont need to have an incredible A-game to become an All-Time Great. B or even C game is more important and he is the best I've seen in playing below average or badly and still win.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby badtemperedcyril

When Selby is on HIS A game (you say he can’t reach such a high level as Robbo or Trump ~ I don’t necessarily agree) he is so affective that he stops his opponent from playing. We saw in the last WC how Selby can completely shut an opponent out, which he demonstrated handsomely against Robbo in their quarter final. Put simply, Robbo is rarely going to get anywhere near his A game when playing against Selby because he won’t get sufficient opportunities. Trump is a different proposition because he has the single mindedness to dictate the play. We have never seen a peak Trump against a peak Selby. Still time though.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby TheRocket

You only need to look at the bare stats like the H2H to see that Trump has a 5:0 record over Selby in the bo11 and above distance matches. It gets even worse for Selby when you look at the scorelines. The matches Trump won were not even competitive. Trump just destroyed him. And it happened too many times to think that Selby just had a very bad day.

However. I have to admit with Robertson its more complicated. If you say that Selby did a number on him at the World Championship I agree with you but at the same time Robertson chose a completely braindead tactic against Selby right from the start where he tried to outbattle and outselby Selby. His AST was 30 seconds in the end. He had already made the same mistake against Higgins the year before.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby McManusFan

Johnny Bravo wrote:
McManusFan wrote:With a lot of these players there is always a question about whether they haven't fulfilled their potential, or if they were just overhyped at the beginning. The only player I can think of where there isn't any doubt is Paul Hunter.

He's dead, so it wasn't his fault.


Never said it was! Generally speaking I think you can only really say a player hasn't reached their potential if they suffer some sort of setback like an illness or accident.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby badtemperedcyril

TheRocket wrote:You only need to look at the bare stats like the H2H to see that Trump has a 5:0 record over Selby in the bo11 and above distance matches. It gets even worse for Selby when you look at the scorelines. The matches Trump won were not even competitive. Trump just destroyed him. And it happened too many times to think that Selby just had a very bad day.

However. I have to admit with Robertson its more complicated. If you say that Selby did a number on him at the World Championship I agree with you but at the same time Robertson chose a completely braindead tactic against Selby right from the start where he tried to outbattle and outselby Selby. His AST was 30 seconds in the end. He had already made the same mistake against Higgins the year before.


You are absolutely correct with the stats, of course. After his 2017 World Championship though, Selby's game disintegrated badly and it's only in this past six months that he's got back to anything like his old form. Selby has beaten O'Sullivan in finals at the World Championship, UK and Masters - not many people can say that. I just wonder whether a peak Selby would be able get under Trump's skin like he did to Ronnie on those occasions... Possibly Trump has more patience than Ronnie and thus able to withstand more torture?

Going back to Robertson - he's an infuriating player if you happen to be a supporter of his. He is mega talented for sure but as you alluded to, so often during his career, he's got his game plan (or tactics) completely wrong.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Iranu

badtemperedcyril wrote:Selby has beaten O'Sullivan in finals at the World Championship, UK and Masters - not many people can say that.

Well nobody else can.

In fact, I don’t think anybody else has beaten Ronnie in two different TC finals have they? Ronnie’s only WC final loss was against Selby and I’m sure it’s the same for UK finals.

That’s a pretty unique achievement if it’s the case, actually. I don’t see anyone else achieving it. Judd’s the most likely but at this stage of Ronnie’s career the likelihood they’ll meet in a UK and WC final is quite low.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Iranu

McManusFan wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:
McManusFan wrote:With a lot of these players there is always a question about whether they haven't fulfilled their potential, or if they were just overhyped at the beginning. The only player I can think of where there isn't any doubt is Paul Hunter.

He's dead, so it wasn't his fault.


Never said it was! Generally speaking I think you can only really say a player hasn't reached their potential if they suffer some sort of setback like an illness or accident.

Interesting point this - would we say Carter hasn’t achieved his potential? He’s obviously had a lot of health issues yet I’d be tempted to say his achievements are about right. Possibly an extra ranker or two but to be honest4 titles plus a few major finals seems right for his ability.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby TheRocket

Trump has more patience than O'Sullivan which makes it tough for Selby to get under his skin. Scrappy frames dont frustrate him as much as it does with Ronnie.

With his long and single ball potting he also has the ability to pot himself out of trouble and take control over safety battles. I'd say Trumps game overall is better suited for playing Selby than Ronnies is.

Saying that, Ronnie still has a good and leading H2H record against Selby. Selby beat him in all three TC finals. Thats true. But Ronnie is also the only player who beat Selby in all three TC tournaments. Thats also an interesting stat.

Just noticed that Ronnie and Selby met in more TC matches than Ronnie and Higgins did. 10 vs 9. Quite insane actually.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby badtemperedcyril

TheRocket wrote:Trump has more patience than O'Sullivan which makes it tough for Selby to get under his skin. Scrappy frames dont frustrate him as much as it does with Ronnie.

With his long and single ball potting he also has the ability to pot himself out of trouble and take control over safety battles. I'd say Trumps game overall is better suited for playing Selby than Ronnies is.

Saying that, Ronnie still has a good and leading H2H record against Selby. Selby beat him in all three TC finals. Thats true. But Ronnie is also the only player who beat Selby in all three TC tournaments. Thats also an interesting stat.

Just noticed that Ronnie and Selby met in more TC matches than Ronnie and Higgins did. 10 vs 9. Quite insane actually.

An interesting debate. Going back to an earlier post on this thread... I think all things considered, even Selby's biggest critics can't fail to acknowledge his standing as a genuine heavyweight of the game. I would place him ahead of anyone on the "all time" standings except Hendry, O'Sullivan, Higgins(J), Davis(S) and Williams. You could reasonably include Reardon and Davis(J) if you so wished.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby Iranu

TheRocket wrote:Just noticed that Ronnie and Selby met in more TC matches than Ronnie and Higgins did. 10 vs 9. Quite insane actually.

To be fair Higgins’ UK and Masters records is quite poor for someone of his class. He’s gone out before the quarter finals in 11 of the last 20 UKs and has only reached the semis of the Masters 8 times and has lost in the first round 13 of the 26 times he’s played there.

For a player that most would put comfortably in their top 5, that’s a poor showing.

Because of this there’s been less likelihood of him and Ronnie meeting in TCs than you’d expect.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby TheRocket

Iranu wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Just noticed that Ronnie and Selby met in more TC matches than Ronnie and Higgins did. 10 vs 9. Quite insane actually.

To be fair Higgins’ UK and Masters records is quite poor for someone of his class. He’s gone out before the quarter finals in 11 of the last 20 UKs and has only reached the semis of the Masters 8 times and has lost in the first round 13 of the 26 times he’s played there.

For a player that most would put comfortably in their top 5, that’s a poor showing.

Because of this there’s been less likelihood of him and Ronnie meeting in TCs than you’d expect.


You're right. Its his Masters record in particular which is quite shocking.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby TheRocket

badtemperedcyril wrote:An interesting debate. Going back to an earlier post on this thread... I think all things considered, even Selby's biggest critics can't fail to acknowledge his standing as a genuine heavyweight of the game. I would place him ahead of anyone on the "all time" standings except Hendry, O'Sullivan, Higgins(J), Davis(S) and Williams. You could reasonably include Reardon and Davis(J) if you so wished.


Well yeah all the critics, peak level and style of play debate aside its obvious he is an ATG. And not miles away from the Top5 either.

There is a good chance he will surpass Williams in the All-Time Great list once both men are retired. At least on paper he'll probably have a better career than Williams.

Trump has a good chance to surpass both in the end but he needs to wrap up the TC titles which he hasnt been doing that often. Bar that fantastic season he had in 18/19.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby McManusFan

Iranu wrote:
McManusFan wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:
McManusFan wrote:With a lot of these players there is always a question about whether they haven't fulfilled their potential, or if they were just overhyped at the beginning. The only player I can think of where there isn't any doubt is Paul Hunter.

He's dead, so it wasn't his fault.


Never said it was! Generally speaking I think you can only really say a player hasn't reached their potential if they suffer some sort of setback like an illness or accident.

Interesting point this - would we say Carter hasn’t achieved his potential? He’s obviously had a lot of health issues yet I’d be tempted to say his achievements are about right. Possibly an extra ranker or two but to be honest4 titles plus a few major finals seems right for his ability.


He's certainly a good example of someone who hasn't been knocked back too much, and he clearly has a good temperament (and a temper too!).
Didn't Lisowski have health issues too? Imagine if he'd have gotten those raw edges shaved off years ago.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby HappyCamper

McManusFan wrote:Didn't Lisowski have health issues too? Imagine if he'd have gotten those raw edges shaved off years ago.


yes, he had a form of cancer when he was a teenager.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby SnookerEd25

Iranu wrote:
TheRocket wrote:Just noticed that Ronnie and Selby met in more TC matches than Ronnie and Higgins did. 10 vs 9. Quite insane actually.

To be fair Higgins’ UK and Masters records is quite poor for someone of his class. He’s gone out before the quarter finals in 11 of the last 20 UKs and has only reached the semis of the Masters 8 times and has lost in the first round 13 of the 26 times he’s played there.

For a player that most would put comfortably in their top 5, that’s a poor showing.

Because of this there’s been less likelihood of him and Ronnie meeting in TCs than you’d expect.


John is clearly a player who relishes the longer distance matches. Had they not bucked around with the UK & kept it as a genuine major, his record there would be far more impressive I fancy; he is clearly very vulnerable in BO11’s or below, hence his poor record at the Masters too.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby McManusFan

HappyCamper wrote:
McManusFan wrote:Didn't Lisowski have health issues too? Imagine if he'd have gotten those raw edges shaved off years ago.


yes, he had a form of cancer when he was a teenager.


Nasty. Explains why he plays like a much younger player, and it just shows how much talent he must have to not have something like that destroy his professional career.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby TheSaviour

Alan McManus has started to play really well now.

Jak Jones has play really well for a year or so now.

It might take some time before they will the really big results.

The style which Ronnie and Kyren plays is a one where a slow start to matches will get better and better. The precisions will be there only then, playing just an odd, single ball and to forgot all those trees and mathematics. Just an odd ball, to make sure to pot it, and a straightforward positioning of the cue ball also. They usually starts with some drivel, but it doesn´t that much matter. That´s the style for the future also! Interesting to see how Alan and Jak can possibly deal with that style. And now Mark Selby also playing that slow-start also, OMG...

David Gilbert to hold his nerve and sending Selby packing with a century…?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Martin Gould TO HOLD HIS NERVER and sending Kyren WIlson packing with a century…?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The tour is full with a real life jokes like this, which just keeps on happening. A much to do just calling a name and receiving and gathering a self-confidence or not. The Chinese can´t have that as there´s too many persons to share it. Not much wrong with those ideas, but lacking the self-confidence.

Well, David Gilbert is a brilliant single ball potter, can´t rule him out of fulfilling his potential, now.

Stephen Maguire can´t hold his nerve anymore at all. Which is slightly strange, although must be stated that he has gone all wrong with his playing style also. Anyone can see it. Perhaps just Stephen himself can´t, but don´t really know how it is. But can rule him out always while the going gets really tough. He might retire from snooker and try to figure out those pool balls. But he won´t. Stephen Maguire´s a fiery character and person, which I personally like.

Mark Allen isn´t really threating to win any big tournaments anymore. Sad, as his trademark every now and then an odd 145 or 6 or 4 breaks still are there. Overally, his just lacking the stamina and some modern ideas.

Hopefully Judd CAN fulfill his potential and fire those 2000 centuries in, and also winning the Worlds perhaps 4 or 5 times, just can´t tell at all that can he, will he.

There´s just a few ideas. And mind you, please inform me if something new and innovative with the twitter will be on, and you fancy some more people in it.

Re: Snooker players who didn't fulfil their potential

Postby SnookerEd25

Dan-cat wrote:Dene O'Kane


Dene was very chilled out and laid back, during his career; was into meditation and yoga for example. He was also pretty well known in New Zealand and seemed to be very content with how his career panned out. Some players just seem happy to be earning a living doing something they enjoy so much, and winning trophies is almost incidental to them. I would say Dominic Dale is a modern-day example.