Post a reply

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby Wildey

Iranu wrote:
Wildey wrote:Snooker is a Sport you want to see players come through and winning 20 matches against players ranked 65 or under in a season would mean very little and pointless in the development of players. however if you play Ronnie, Trump or Selby in a last 128 that would mean more to a player and gain experiance of playing the best and if you won well the publicity and help to get sponsors that would include would be imense than winning 20 against others.

I strongly disagree with this.

I don’t think getting thrashed by top players week-in week-out is as helpful as winning 20 matches in a season against players of a similar skill level. At least you’d feel like you’re actually part of the tour and deserving of a spot. It would build confidence which is what new players need.

I wonder how Jamie Clarke for example is enjoying having got past the first round three times in 6 years (excluding the Shoot Out), all at the Gibraltar Open with a reduced field. I’m sure he really values the experience of beating Sam Baird, Jamie Curtis-Barrett, Luo Honghao and Chen Feilong.

What your talking about is maintaining the players thats known as Journeymen


im not interested in that i want them gone and if you cant get a decent season playing 20 + ranking events and maybe beating a top player along the way then you dont deserve to play snooker proffesionally.

History is full of players that won one or 2 matches and the only time they would meet a top player was to get their autograff.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby McManusFan

I think it would be good to have a mix of formats, I don't think they should do away with the flat draw entirely but perhaps make it less ubiquitous.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby Iranu

Wildey wrote:What your talking about is maintaining the players thats known as Journeymen

No that’s clearly not what I’m talking about.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby lhpirnie

It depends on what you mean by 'journeyman'. Some people would classify Ben Woollaston as a journeyman.

To get rid of journeymen sounds like a breakaway tour. Most casual fans would prefer watching Jimmy White and Ken Doherty than Harvey Chandler and Sam Craigie - whose names they will forget tomorrow. I'm sure the BBC would be happy just to have Trump, O'Sullivan, Higgins, Selby, Robertson, Williams, Murphy, Ding, Bingham and maybe a few others (including Doherty and White). Perhaps Cliff Thorburn and Dennis Taylor could make a comeback. The snooker community is so fixated by the 1980's it would be a huge success.

There is only one place where that leads: the death of snooker.

We need journeymen. They provide a testing ground for young players, they become coaches and mentors, they provide credible opposition to allow the superstars to show their brilliance. Some players will move through the journeyman ranks and become top players.

As for tournament structures, with so many tournaments there's room for tiered draws, flat draws, even leagues like the Covid Classic (although there are weaknesses to address). Different tournaments should have a different character.

But it's vital to allow a way for young players to get a foothold. Without them snooker ends up like billiards, and Ronnie's 147 just becomes a YouTube archive, like Walter Lindrum's "How to make 100 break in billiards".

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby Wildey

McManusFan wrote:I think it would be good to have a mix of formats, I don't think they should do away with the flat draw entirely but perhaps make it less ubiquitous.

UK Championship should be a tiered event Maybe even the European Events it was not good this season that Defending Champion of both German Masters and European Masters lost in qualifying but all other events are working as flat 128.

Look at this season UK Championship 11 Top 16 players reached the last 32 still a high number but 5 less than it would have been under Tier system meaning 5 more lower rank players got price money of £12,000 they wouldnt have got under a tier system.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby Wildey

lhpirnie wrote:It depends on what you mean by 'journeyman'. Some people would classify Ben Woollaston as a journeyman.

To get rid of journeymen sounds like a breakaway tour. Most casual fans would prefer watching Jimmy White and Ken Doherty than Harvey Chandler and Sam Craigie - whose names they will forget tomorrow. I'm sure the BBC would be happy just to have Trump, O'Sullivan, Higgins, Selby, Robertson, Williams, Murphy, Ding, Bingham and maybe a few others (including Doherty and White). Perhaps Cliff Thorburn and Dennis Taylor could make a comeback. The snooker community is so fixated by the 1980's it would be a huge success.

There is only one place where that leads: the death of snooker.

We need journeymen. They provide a testing ground for young players, they become coaches and mentors, they provide credible opposition to allow the superstars to show their brilliance. Some players will move through the journeyman ranks and become top players.

As for tournament structures, with so many tournaments there's room for tiered draws, flat draws, even leagues like the Covid Classic (although there are weaknesses to address). Different tournaments should have a different character.

But it's vital to allow a way for young players to get a foothold. Without them snooker ends up like billiards, and Ronnie's 147 just becomes a YouTube archive, like Walter Lindrum's "How to make 100 break in billiards".

Stuart Bingham was a journeyman until Barry Hearn came on board and change everything. Stuart was comfterble just winning the odd match here and there to make a living out of it ranked in the mid 20s it took him 17 years to reach his first Semi Final of a ranking event because he had to no more free rides

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby lhpirnie

Wildey wrote:
McManusFan wrote:I think it would be good to have a mix of formats, I don't think they should do away with the flat draw entirely but perhaps make it less ubiquitous.

UK Championship should be a tiered event Maybe even the European Events it was not good this season that Defending Champion of both German Masters and European Masters lost in qualifying but all other events are working as flat 128.

Look at this season UK Championship 11 Top 16 players reached the last 32 still a high number but 5 less than it would have been under Tier system meaning 5 more lower rank players got price money of £12,000 they wouldnt have got under a tier system.

Yes in general tournaments with best-of-11 (or longer) could be tiered, because the chances for an upset are much less, and you just get a lot of 6-0 mismatches which isn't good.


I think the European events should be invitational. It's very sad for the organisers of the German Masters that several top players are missing and there are no German players there. They make a magnificent effort organising that event. Take the top-24, plus 4 qualifiers, and 4 wildcards.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby chengdufan

I don't like the flat 128. Here's my suggested format:

Event 1
Top 32 in the rankings automatically qualify for the first round (last 64).
For qualifying, the remaining 96 are seeded into 3 pots based on ranking. You have 32 groups consisting of one player from each pot. There are 3 matches in each qualifying group, which could be best of 5, or even just 4 frames like the current tournament. The winner of each group qualifies.

Event 2
The 32 players who won their first round match in event 1 automatically qualify for event 2.
Qualifying for event 2 is similar to event 1, and could take place either following the conclusion of event 1, or during the later stages of event 1, possibly in a secondary venue.

Repeat until the World Championship, which would keep its current format.

Advantages:
The lower ranked players would very rarely have to beat one of the top players to qualify. If they did, as well as the walloping (and experience), they'd also play another player at a similar standard to themselves.
You play 6-10 frames to qualify against 2 players, rather than 4-7 against 1, making it more likely that the better players qualify for the later rounds.
The top players are encouraged to enter more events, as they would have to qualify for the next should they miss one.
There are many other advantages, but I'll stop here for brevity.

I would also reduce the later round prize money slightly so that anyone on the first year of their two year card has travel and accommodation reimbursed, regardless of where they are coming from. Second years should pay their own way. And I'd award a minimum 500GBP to all those who get knocked out in qualifying.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby Iranu

lhpirnie wrote:
Wildey wrote:
McManusFan wrote:I think it would be good to have a mix of formats, I don't think they should do away with the flat draw entirely but perhaps make it less ubiquitous.

UK Championship should be a tiered event Maybe even the European Events it was not good this season that Defending Champion of both German Masters and European Masters lost in qualifying but all other events are working as flat 128.

Look at this season UK Championship 11 Top 16 players reached the last 32 still a high number but 5 less than it would have been under Tier system meaning 5 more lower rank players got price money of £12,000 they wouldnt have got under a tier system.

Yes in general tournaments with best-of-11 (or longer) could be tiered, because the chances for an upset are much less, and you just get a lot of 6-0 mismatches which isn't good.


I think the European events should be invitational. It's very sad for the organisers of the German Masters that several top players are missing and there are no German players there. They make a magnificent effort organising that event. Take the top-24, plus 4 qualifiers, and 4 wildcards.

If they were tiered that wouldn’t happen though because the top players wouldn’t need to qualify. I don’t think there’s any reason to make them invitational.

Honestly if they could just move the qualifiers until after Christmas that would probably make a huge difference too.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby Wildey

Iranu wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:
Wildey wrote:
McManusFan wrote:I think it would be good to have a mix of formats, I don't think they should do away with the flat draw entirely but perhaps make it less ubiquitous.

UK Championship should be a tiered event Maybe even the European Events it was not good this season that Defending Champion of both German Masters and European Masters lost in qualifying but all other events are working as flat 128.

Look at this season UK Championship 11 Top 16 players reached the last 32 still a high number but 5 less than it would have been under Tier system meaning 5 more lower rank players got price money of £12,000 they wouldnt have got under a tier system.

Yes in general tournaments with best-of-11 (or longer) could be tiered, because the chances for an upset are much less, and you just get a lot of 6-0 mismatches which isn't good.


I think the European events should be invitational. It's very sad for the organisers of the German Masters that several top players are missing and there are no German players there. They make a magnificent effort organising that event. Take the top-24, plus 4 qualifiers, and 4 wildcards.

If they were tiered that wouldn’t happen though because the top players wouldn’t need to qualify. I don’t think there’s any reason to make them invitational.

Honestly if they could just move the qualifiers until after Christmas that would probably make a huge difference too.

If this 11 day Championship league for 64 players continues after Covid instead of the 32 day event for 25 players then that gives more options to play qualifiers in january

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby lhpirnie

Iranu wrote:
lhpirnie wrote:
Wildey wrote:
McManusFan wrote:I think it would be good to have a mix of formats, I don't think they should do away with the flat draw entirely but perhaps make it less ubiquitous.

UK Championship should be a tiered event Maybe even the European Events it was not good this season that Defending Champion of both German Masters and European Masters lost in qualifying but all other events are working as flat 128.

Look at this season UK Championship 11 Top 16 players reached the last 32 still a high number but 5 less than it would have been under Tier system meaning 5 more lower rank players got price money of £12,000 they wouldnt have got under a tier system.

Yes in general tournaments with best-of-11 (or longer) could be tiered, because the chances for an upset are much less, and you just get a lot of 6-0 mismatches which isn't good.


I think the European events should be invitational. It's very sad for the organisers of the German Masters that several top players are missing and there are no German players there. They make a magnificent effort organising that event. Take the top-24, plus 4 qualifiers, and 4 wildcards.

If they were tiered that wouldn’t happen though because the top players wouldn’t need to qualify. I don’t think there’s any reason to make them invitational.

Honestly if they could just move the qualifiers until after Christmas that would probably make a huge difference too.

Yes that's true, but the wildcards are important too. If they have qualifiers, then they could be winners of regional tournaments held in various places: one in UK, one in Berlin, one elsewhere in Europe, one in Asia. It's those qualification rounds in Barnsley that are monotonous, despite the fact that I regularly go to them!

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby lhpirnie

Wildey wrote:If this 11 day Championship league for 64 players continues after Covid instead of the 32 day event for 25 players then that gives more options to play qualifiers in january

TBH, this Covid Classic is only ever going to be a one-off. The future of 'Championship League' is something that the sponsors will decide upon - they will want to keep their position in the calendar.


I doubt whether as many of the top players would play in this format if it were repeated in normal times.

Re: End of the Flat 128 at last

Postby SnookerFan

lhpirnie wrote:
Wildey wrote:If this 11 day Championship league for 64 players continues after Covid instead of the 32 day event for 25 players then that gives more options to play qualifiers in january

TBH, this Covid Classic is only ever going to be a one-off. The future of 'Championship League' is something that the sponsors will decide upon - they will want to keep their position in the calendar.


I doubt whether as many of the top players would play in this format if it were repeated in normal times.


I suspect you're right.