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Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby StretfordEnd1996

I have an odd question on the World Grand Prix.

Neil Robertson of course won the trophy - and with the win he lifted that piece of silverware for the first time, he's not won this tournament before.

But on closer inspection - no he didn't lift it for the first time!

It's the exact same trophy/piece of silverware that he lifted upon winning the 2006 and 2009 Grand Prix in Scotland back in its days when it was on the BBC as well as the World Open also on the BBC the following year - I assume this trophy had been in use for the Grand Prix years before 2009 as well (possibly for a long long time considering the age of the tournament).

I'm sure most people would say the current World Grand Prix was first held in 2015 and isn't any sort of continuation of the unrelated Grand Prix that ran from 1982 until 2009, before coming the World Open in 2010. But the re-use of the trophy says otherwise. Do we consider it the same tournament?

Or is indeed the World Open in Yushan the continuation of the original 1982 tournament? Wikipedia thinks that it is - strange..

What do people think?

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Juddernaut88

When the World Grand Prix came into effect in 2015 part of me did think ahhh nice for this tournament to come back, I'd sort of forgotten that the World Open was a continuation of the Grand Prix considering it was now played in China and no longer televised on BBC. It does create a lot of confusion but the reality is they are different tournaments despite the fact the trophies are the exact same. I think the trophy is a really nice trophy. I'm not a fan of the Masters trophy , it was so nice before 2004.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby csprince

i think there different tournaments.what was the rothmans grand prix became the world open which was open to non pro's for one season at least then it moved to china so i would say the two versions of the world open are the same just different country's the world grand prix is different as it's a limited field event.sometimes tournaments evolve and formats change if the worlds or the masters move to china there still the same tournament the format and venue of the uk have changed but it's still the same tournament.i don't think anyone can say it's the same tournament just because the trophy is the same.tournaments should have there own identity.which i think the rothmans grand prix.world open. and the world grand prix have.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby SnookerFan

The Grand Prix changed it's name to the World Open the last year it was held on the BBC. After the BBC stopped showing it, the World Open moved to China and was moved to a different time of year.

A few years later, ITV started showing a tournament called the World Grand Prix that used the same trophy.

It's sort of messy. Is the World Open in China the same tournament as the Grand Prix/World Open that the BBC held? Is the World Grand Prix on ITV a continuation?

My opinion is that the ITV version is different to the BBC version, and the fact that they use the same trophy is just a gimmick.

Technically, I think the World Open in China is meant to be a continuation of the BBC Grand Prix. But I tend to think of them as distinct from each other too. I don't know why, they just feel different.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby csprince

i think the rothmans grand prix may have started as the players championship in 1982 which tony knowles won then that became the rothmans grand prix in 1984.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby PLtheRef

csprince wrote:i think the rothmans grand prix may have started as the players championship in 1982 which tony knowles won then that became the rothmans grand prix in 1984.


You're right, the original 'Grand Prix' event which became the World Open as it is now was originally set up as the Professional Players Tournament. It's probably unique as it was deliberately unsponsored nor televised at first as it was set up to allow the WPBSA to pay the players prize monies which would otherwise been payable as Tax.

It was when the World Cup wasn't held in 1984 that it became the Rothmans Grand Prix and was televised.

Its interesting that they use the same trophy, but I don't think its a continuation of that event - The World Open yes, (though the format of 2012 is radically different to the one of 2010). The LG Cup used a different trophy for the three years it was used before the event went back to being known as the Grand Prix in 2004/

Snooker has a habit of reusing or recycling trophies. - The Champion of Champions Trophy is the old World 9 Ball Championship trophy

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Wildey

I Think the trophy they play for now at the World Grand Prix was first won in 1993 by Peter Ebdon in the Skoda grand prix.

The Rothmans Grand Prix trophy was

Image

and the LG Cup trophy played for between 2001-2003

Image

Then in 2004 the Grand Prix resumed and the World Grand Prix trophy they use today was last played for in 2010 and won by Neil Robertson in the World Open and then went missing for 4 years until Judd Trump won it in Llandudno in 2015 World Grand Prix so Neil has effectively won the trophy 4 times under 3 different Names.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby hedgehog444

I think you ask a great question because funnily enough when the 'new' World Grand Prix was created in 2015 I seem to remember talking to a mate at the same time about this very topic

My view is this - over the years a lot of tournaments go through many venue changes, formats, sponsors, trophies and broadcasters - so there's a fair few tournaments out there where the current edition may be a bit of a complete contrast to the first edition of the theoretical continuous tournament.

As in the case of the Grand Prix, I think most would agree that from 1982 until 2010 it was one long continuous tournament - and the two things that I feel kept it as so were the broadcaster (BBC for every edition) and its 'slot' in the calendar (seem to remember it was always around October). In edition every time the format changed or the sponsor changed or the name changed, it was no doubt it was a change rather than a 'replacement'.

In 2010 Barry Hearn decided to rename it to the 'World Open' with a change of format (which in all honesty I feel was a bit of a poor decision, best-of-5s!!) and this was the last edition shown on the BBC. It used the same trophy and was held in the same city as previous years.

When the move to China was announced, it was definitely a 'move' rather than a new replacement tournament as it was phrased that way. But it therefore had a change of country, venue, trophy (Mark Allen lifted a brand new trophy), format, broadcaster and sponsor. I therefore do ask myself whether it really has anything to do with the BBC Grand Prix from 1982-2010. My opinion is that it doesn't.

When they introduced the new 'World Grand Prix' in 2015, Hearn marketed it as a completely brand new event - featuring a unique format (at the time) of the top 32 on the 1 year list. Now at this time in 2015, the World Open had effectively been dropped from the calendar - its 3 year stint in China came to an abrupt stop with disagreements with the venue. So I think that's maybe what kind of prompted some to feel it was a continuation of the World Open, more so because they used the same trophy (which hadn't been in use since Neil lifted it in 2010).

But soon after the World Open was re-established once again in 2016 in yet a completely new different venue in China (Wushan) with yet again a different trophy to the one Allen lifted twice in Haikou ..

So to conclude in my opinion, the current World Open in Yushan I feel became almost a brand new tournament in 2016 (or 2012 at the earliest) and has the most weakest irrelevant connection to the old BBC Grand Prix from 1984-2010, though there is still the most slightest of connections.

The new 'World Grand Prix' using the same trophy as the old BBC Grand Prix I think is just, as someone else mentioned, a bit of a 'gimmick' or a 'quirk' - odd in a sense that Neil lifted the trophy last month for the 'first time' - but in another sense certainly didn't.

I doubt the trophy has a plaque on it with the BBC Grand Prix winners engraved, let's put it that way (though I think it did when Judd won it in the inaugural year in 2015?!)

But then again the Yushan World Open trophy definitely does not have the BBC Grand Prix winners engraved on it either..

It's all a bit strange not going to lie but going back to what I said at the start - tournaments change so much over the years to the point where a lot of them you simply can't really say it's been one long continuous tournament from the start, even if Wikipedia says otherwise.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Pink Ball

Snooker basically had seven standout tournaments:

The World Championship, The UK Championship, The Masters, The Irish Masters, The Classic, The British Open and The Grand Prix.

Only three remain, really. And of those that remain, the UK Championship is a bastardised version of its old self.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Iranu

Pink Ball wrote:Snooker basically had seven standout tournaments:

The World Championship, The UK Championship, The Masters, The Irish Masters, The Classic, The British Open and The Grand Prix.

Only three remain, really. And of those that remain, the UK Championship is a bastardised version of its old self.

You don’t think there are any new standout tournaments?

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Pink Ball

Iranu wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Snooker basically had seven standout tournaments:

The World Championship, The UK Championship, The Masters, The Irish Masters, The Classic, The British Open and The Grand Prix.

Only three remain, really. And of those that remain, the UK Championship is a bastardised version of its old self.

You don’t think there are any new standout tournaments?

No, that's not what I'm saying. It's just the original seven standouts are nearly all gone.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Ck147

Iranu wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Snooker basically had seven standout tournaments:

The World Championship, The UK Championship, The Masters, The Irish Masters, The Classic, The British Open and The Grand Prix.

Only three remain, really. And of those that remain, the UK Championship is a bastardised version of its old self.

You don’t think there are any new standout tournaments?

TC definitely, shame all this covid stuff stopped us seeing the 2nd edition.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby csprince

Juddernaut88 wrote:It's a shame they got rid of the British Open, that was a nice tournament and was one of the very few events Sky Sports televised.

i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby SnookerFan

Ck147 wrote:
Iranu wrote:
Pink Ball wrote:Snooker basically had seven standout tournaments:

The World Championship, The UK Championship, The Masters, The Irish Masters, The Classic, The British Open and The Grand Prix.

Only three remain, really. And of those that remain, the UK Championship is a bastardised version of its old self.

You don’t think there are any new standout tournaments?

TC definitely, shame all this covid stuff stopped us seeing the 2nd edition.


According to World Snooker, it's been rescheduled.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby SnookerEd25

csprince wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:It's a shame they got rid of the British Open, that was a nice tournament and was one of the very few events Sky Sports televised.

i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.


No seeding, and an FA Cup style draw where the players were drawn out of the bag after each round was completed. I'd like to see that revived for a modern tournament.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby csprince

SnookerEd25 wrote:
csprince wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:It's a shame they got rid of the British Open, that was a nice tournament and was one of the very few events Sky Sports televised.

i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.


No seeding, and an FA Cup style draw where the players were drawn out of the bag after each round was completed. I'd like to see that revived for a modern tournament.


absolutely i remember clive everton being critical because of possible distortion of the rankings. i think it was the same year when robert marshall got to the semi's and bob chaperon bt alex higgins in the final which probably wouldn't of happened if the players were seeded.i suppose we actually have that now with the shoot out.open draw with seedings.would be cool with a longer format even a bo7.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby PLtheRef

hedgehog444 wrote:I think you ask a great question because funnily enough when the 'new' World Grand Prix was created in 2015 I seem to remember talking to a mate at the same time about this very topic

My view is this - over the years a lot of tournaments go through many venue changes, formats, sponsors, trophies and broadcasters - so there's a fair few tournaments out there where the current edition may be a bit of a complete contrast to the first edition of the theoretical continuous tournament.

As in the case of the Grand Prix, I think most would agree that from 1982 until 2010 it was one long continuous tournament - and the two things that I feel kept it as so were the broadcaster (BBC for every edition) and its 'slot' in the calendar (seem to remember it was always around October). In edition every time the format changed or the sponsor changed or the name changed, it was no doubt it was a change rather than a 'replacement'.

In 2010 Barry Hearn decided to rename it to the 'World Open' with a change of format (which in all honesty I feel was a bit of a poor decision, best-of-5s!!) and this was the last edition shown on the BBC. It used the same trophy and was held in the same city as previous years.

When the move to China was announced, it was definitely a 'move' rather than a new replacement tournament as it was phrased that way. But it therefore had a change of country, venue, trophy (Mark Allen lifted a brand new trophy), format, broadcaster and sponsor. I therefore do ask myself whether it really has anything to do with the BBC Grand Prix from 1982-2010. My opinion is that it doesn't.

When they introduced the new 'World Grand Prix' in 2015, Hearn marketed it as a completely brand new event - featuring a unique format (at the time) of the top 32 on the 1 year list. Now at this time in 2015, the World Open had effectively been dropped from the calendar - its 3 year stint in China came to an abrupt stop with disagreements with the venue. So I think that's maybe what kind of prompted some to feel it was a continuation of the World Open, more so because they used the same trophy (which hadn't been in use since Neil lifted it in 2010).

But soon after the World Open was re-established once again in 2016 in yet a completely new different venue in China (Wushan) with yet again a different trophy to the one Allen lifted twice in Haikou ..

So to conclude in my opinion, the current World Open in Yushan I feel became almost a brand new tournament in 2016 (or 2012 at the earliest) and has the most weakest irrelevant connection to the old BBC Grand Prix from 1984-2010, though there is still the most slightest of connections.

The new 'World Grand Prix' using the same trophy as the old BBC Grand Prix I think is just, as someone else mentioned, a bit of a 'gimmick' or a 'quirk' - odd in a sense that Neil lifted the trophy last month for the 'first time' - but in another sense certainly didn't.

I doubt the trophy has a plaque on it with the BBC Grand Prix winners engraved, let's put it that way (though I think it did when Judd won it in the inaugural year in 2015?!)

But then again the Yushan World Open trophy definitely does not have the BBC Grand Prix winners engraved on it either..

It's all a bit strange not going to lie but going back to what I said at the start - tournaments change so much over the years to the point where a lot of them you simply can't really say it's been one long continuous tournament from the start, even if Wikipedia says otherwise.



To an extent, I wonder if Barry had known that the BBC were going to reduce their main commitments to three tournaments and the Welsh on BBC Wales regardless then would he have so radically changed the World Open? If you'd ask him he would say yes, but I think the changes were made to try and keep the BBC on board with the fourth event.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby SnookerFan

SnookerEd25 wrote:
csprince wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:It's a shame they got rid of the British Open, that was a nice tournament and was one of the very few events Sky Sports televised.

i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.


No seeding, and an FA Cup style draw where the players were drawn out of the bag after each round was completed. I'd like to see that revived for a modern tournament.


I liked the random draw format.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby SnookerFan

PLtheRef wrote:
hedgehog444 wrote:I think you ask a great question because funnily enough when the 'new' World Grand Prix was created in 2015 I seem to remember talking to a mate at the same time about this very topic

My view is this - over the years a lot of tournaments go through many venue changes, formats, sponsors, trophies and broadcasters - so there's a fair few tournaments out there where the current edition may be a bit of a complete contrast to the first edition of the theoretical continuous tournament.

As in the case of the Grand Prix, I think most would agree that from 1982 until 2010 it was one long continuous tournament - and the two things that I feel kept it as so were the broadcaster (BBC for every edition) and its 'slot' in the calendar (seem to remember it was always around October). In edition every time the format changed or the sponsor changed or the name changed, it was no doubt it was a change rather than a 'replacement'.

In 2010 Barry Hearn decided to rename it to the 'World Open' with a change of format (which in all honesty I feel was a bit of a poor decision, best-of-5s!!) and this was the last edition shown on the BBC. It used the same trophy and was held in the same city as previous years.

When the move to China was announced, it was definitely a 'move' rather than a new replacement tournament as it was phrased that way. But it therefore had a change of country, venue, trophy (Mark Allen lifted a brand new trophy), format, broadcaster and sponsor. I therefore do ask myself whether it really has anything to do with the BBC Grand Prix from 1982-2010. My opinion is that it doesn't.

When they introduced the new 'World Grand Prix' in 2015, Hearn marketed it as a completely brand new event - featuring a unique format (at the time) of the top 32 on the 1 year list. Now at this time in 2015, the World Open had effectively been dropped from the calendar - its 3 year stint in China came to an abrupt stop with disagreements with the venue. So I think that's maybe what kind of prompted some to feel it was a continuation of the World Open, more so because they used the same trophy (which hadn't been in use since Neil lifted it in 2010).

But soon after the World Open was re-established once again in 2016 in yet a completely new different venue in China (Wushan) with yet again a different trophy to the one Allen lifted twice in Haikou ..

So to conclude in my opinion, the current World Open in Yushan I feel became almost a brand new tournament in 2016 (or 2012 at the earliest) and has the most weakest irrelevant connection to the old BBC Grand Prix from 1984-2010, though there is still the most slightest of connections.

The new 'World Grand Prix' using the same trophy as the old BBC Grand Prix I think is just, as someone else mentioned, a bit of a 'gimmick' or a 'quirk' - odd in a sense that Neil lifted the trophy last month for the 'first time' - but in another sense certainly didn't.

I doubt the trophy has a plaque on it with the BBC Grand Prix winners engraved, let's put it that way (though I think it did when Judd won it in the inaugural year in 2015?!)

But then again the Yushan World Open trophy definitely does not have the BBC Grand Prix winners engraved on it either..

It's all a bit strange not going to lie but going back to what I said at the start - tournaments change so much over the years to the point where a lot of them you simply can't really say it's been one long continuous tournament from the start, even if Wikipedia says otherwise.



To an extent, I wonder if Barry had known that the BBC were going to reduce their main commitments to three tournaments and the Welsh on BBC Wales regardless then would he have so radically changed the World Open? If you'd ask him he would say yes, but I think the changes were made to try and keep the BBC on board with the fourth event.


Yes, the changes were made to keep the BBC on board.

I hated that dopey group stage thing they did.

And that best of five nonsense you mentioned was AWFUL!

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Alex0paul

SnookerFan wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
csprince wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:It's a shame they got rid of the British Open, that was a nice tournament and was one of the very few events Sky Sports televised.

i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.


No seeding, and an FA Cup style draw where the players were drawn out of the bag after each round was completed. I'd like to see that revived for a modern tournament.


I liked the random draw format.


You’ll love the Shootout then

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby SnookerFan

Alex0paul wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
csprince wrote:
Juddernaut88 wrote:It's a shame they got rid of the British Open, that was a nice tournament and was one of the very few events Sky Sports televised.

i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.


No seeding, and an FA Cup style draw where the players were drawn out of the bag after each round was completed. I'd like to see that revived for a modern tournament.


I liked the random draw format.


You’ll love the Shootout then


The format isn't the problem.

Can you guess what is?

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby Ck147

SnookerFan wrote:
Alex0paul wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
SnookerEd25 wrote:
csprince wrote:i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.


No seeding, and an FA Cup style draw where the players were drawn out of the bag after each round was completed. I'd like to see that revived for a modern tournament.


I liked the random draw format.


You’ll love the Shootout then


The format isn't the problem.

Can you guess what is?

The short sleeve tops? Can't stand them, proper shirts, waistcoats and ties would elevate the shootout to the level it deserves.

Re: Odd question on the World Grand Prix silverware

Postby csprince

i liked that tournament as well especially when there was no seeding.thinking about it there should be one tournament without any seeding.

No seeding, and an FA Cup style draw where the players were drawn out of the bag after each round was completed. I'd like to see that revived for a modern tournament.

I liked the random draw format.

You’ll love the Shootout then

The format isn't the problem.

Can you guess what is?
The short sleeve tops? Can't stand them, proper shirts, waistcoats and ties would elevate the shootout to the level it deserves.
rofl that was class.
Last edited by csprince on 12 Apr 2020, edited 1 time in total.


   

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