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THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby N_Castle07

http://www.snookerscene.blogspot.com/

Jason Ferguson, the new WPBSA chairman, is calling for the age limit at which players can turn professional to be lowered.

As it stands right now, players can’t turn pro until they are 16.

In a letter to the WPBSA membership, Ferguson cites the example of Luca Brecel, who won the European amateur title at the age of 15 earlier this year.

Ferguson wrote: “Luca achieved a dream by winning the European Championship and qualified for the main tour, only to be told he could not compete as under our rules and constitution he was too young. Whilst there are issues to deal with like child welfare and education, having taken the appropriate advice, these can be worked out. As a former player, I feel that this is a totally unacceptable situation and therefore we will be looking for you to support constitutional change.”

Brecel can play in this season’s PTC events but will have to wait until next year to turn professional.

I was always under the impression that the age limit existed in part because of tobacco sponsorship, which has of course now ceased, although gaming companies also operate under strict rules regarding age.

There seems no logical reason why a 15 year-old can’t play on the tour, just as they are able to compete in other sports.

Many parents would doubtless say they should remain at school and not be distracted by dreams of green baize glory.

Another counter argument is that they won’t be ready, that they need more time on the junior and amateur circuits.

Possibly. But there’s a lot to be said for sink or swim. The fact is, any player will find it tough in their first reason whether they are 15 or 21. This is because it is tough. Really tough.

There have been a few exceptions over the years. Shaun Murphy played in a couple of qualifiers when he was 15 because the season started a fortnight before he turned 16.

This was not, as many people claim, because his father, Tony, was a WPBSA board member at the time. He didn’t join the board until a couple of years later.

It was, in fact, a sensible solution rather than making Shaun wait another year. However, two years ago Michael White, in almost identical circumstances, was barred from playing in two ranking event qualifiers because he was still 15.

The WPBSA administration of the time doggedly insisted no such exemption had ever been given to Murphy or anyone else – despite the evidence in Snooker Scene and elsewhere that it had happened.

Ding Junhui competed in the 2002 China Open as a 14 year-old wild card but was, of course, still an amateur at the time.

It’s impossible to say when a player is truly ‘ready’ to turn professional. You only find out by actually doing it.

If a player like Brecel has qualified for the main tour through a recognised route then he should have his chance.

Ferguson’s idea is therefore worthy of support, although as he says it will require deft implementation to take into account issues around the welfare of the child and their education.


About time. I can't see why they should be an age limit. I'm all for this.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

im split on this some are more mature than others to cope with life on the road.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby JohnFromLondonTown

I'm wondering if we didn't have Luca Brecel about in the first place would this has been raised at all?

Call me a cynic, but I can't help but think that this is Jason Ferguson trying to get some publicity for the game off the back of a kid.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Tubberlad

JohnFromLondonTown wrote:I'm wondering if we didn't have Luca Brecel about in the first place would this has been raised at all?

Call me a cynic, but I can't help but think that this is Jason Ferguson trying to get some publicity for the game off the back of a kid.

Interesting point John. However: I think Judd Trump suffered by not being able to turn professional until he was sixteen. Really, I do. Brecel is an exciting prospect, and is obviously more than good enough to at least have a crack at it now.

The main problem with leaving someone compete at this age is maturity. Can they sustain a life on the road from age fourteen?

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

tubber

i have no doubt some can but others think they can.

just look at someone like Alex Higgins he strugled to cope with it at 20.

on the whole i think kids mature far faster today than when even i was 14 or 15 but how young is young..

regarding trump i think you mistaken i dont think he is mature enough at 20 (ive seen the temper tantrums) never mind 15.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby JohnFromLondonTown

thetubberlad wrote:
JohnFromLondonTown wrote:I'm wondering if we didn't have Luca Brecel about in the first place would this has been raised at all?

Call me a cynic, but I can't help but think that this is Jason Ferguson trying to get some publicity for the game off the back of a kid.

Interesting point John. However: I think Judd Trump suffered by not being able to turn professional until he was sixteen. Really, I do. Brecel is an exciting prospect, and is obviously more than good enough to at least have a crack at it now.

The main problem with leaving someone compete at this age is maturity. Can they sustain a life on the road from age fourteen?

Its hard to measure that sort of stuff tubbs, its all hypothetical. Of course Luca Brecel is an exciting prospect, we're on the same page with that, just, well, I don't know if Jason Ferguson's motives here are genuine & if asking the players is the right move, because, I don't think they'll be too bothered + whoever plays him, will gain exposure just because of playing him. But I suppose we'll see & find out soon enough. :)

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

i think it is a fair thing to ask though john.

and not carrieng on with old ideas in place looking to evolve and change.

but i think your right players would not care.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Alex0paul

If he had qualified through one of the major qualifications routes then yes but he has qualified through the two weakest events in the Euro Playoff and Euro Under 19's. Michael White won the World Amateur title at 14 so there was probably more of a case for him there.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby paperbackwriter

I also don't think it's a big deal and it's more about Brecel than the 'absurd' rule itself. Surely I'd see it differently if I was a 15 year old player knocking on the door of pro sport- but still I don't view it as doing harm to Brecel or any other guy if they have to wait till they turn 16.
Though of course it's also true that the line is put rather randomly and a 15 year old can sometimes handle things better than the guy in his 20s. But that has to be extremely rare, so why not try to protect many others. As I've said, the exceptionally mature one will get his chances anyway.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Noel

If an 80 year old can qualify... why not a 8 year old?
Both would have "guardians" anyway so WTF?

=o)

Noel

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Monique

Well this is one subject about which I disagree with Dave. For me even 16 is too young. IMO they shouldn't be allowed on pro tour before 18 as a minimum. The pressure and the risk of being "exploited" are too high. I'm surprised that Dave supports this. Papers are still full of comments about how Alex Higgins couldn't handle fame and money and he was over 20 when he started. Dave speaks about other sports. Oh yes. Feminine gymnastic for instance? Girls who at 18 look like 13, because they are kept small and underdeveloped for performance. Doesn't he know that many never develop normally? Doesn't he know how prevalent psychological problems are in young athletes? Doesn't he know what damage pushy overambitious parents or coaches can do?
Youngsters lifetine futures are in my eyes more important than any "record".

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby N_Castle07

Hendry, O’Sullivan, John Higgins and Murphy all won major(s) at a young age. Now we are seeing players peak at a slightly older age. By bringing the age limit down it give the players more time to settle into the tour and hopefully will bring the peak age down. For example it took Hendry 5 seasons to really gain his apprenticeship and settle down, if the age limit is brought down then it could give the players more time to settle and hopefully we will see young players winning majors again. I really don’t see the problem here. Even if the players are not mature enough at least it will give them an extra season or two (if there good enough) to gain the experience of being a professional and then they can peak a lot earlier.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Monique

N_Castle07 wrote:Hendry, O’Sullivan, John Higgins and Murphy all won major(s) at a young age. Now we are seeing players peak at a slightly older age. By bringing the age limit down it give the players more time to settle into the tour and hopefully will bring the peak age down. For example it took Hendry 5 seasons to really gain his apprenticeship and settle down, if the age limit is brought down then it could give the players more time to settle and hopefully we will see young players winning majors again. I really don’t see the problem here. Even if the players are not mature enough at least it will give them an extra season or two (if there good enough) to gain the experience of being a professional and then they can peak a lot earlier.


The problem is that if you are not mature enough the psychological damage inflicted by pressure and battle scars can be totally destructive. Being on the MT at 14 will not help the kids to settle, it will destroy them because they don't have what it takes to cope with a relentlessly competitive environment and they are still growing up and it's too demanding. They will also be exposed to temptations they really shouldn't be at that age. Another aspect is that if your education is too basic and something happens - think Chris Small, Neil Foulds - or you just don't succeed well enough you are not prepared for anything else in life. BTW there are international laws forbidding full time work for kids, and for good reasons.
Not to mention all the problematic around who is managing their earnings, how to make sure they are not ecploited.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Casey

I am very much split on this, Monique raised a good point about the need for education to a degree where by if it doesn’t work out the player has a chance at something else. This is where World snooker would need to step in and provide private tutoring.

However if we use other sports as a precedent it has worked well for them. Tennis for example has 14 year olds playing pro tour matches, now they have to travel a lot further and a lot more than snooker players, 11 months of the year. It doesn’t seem to have hindered their young talent, in fact it has seemed to benefit them.

The snooker landscape is slightly different now than it was for Michael White and Murphy in that there is the pro tour events. Luca has 12 events in which he can participate and earn money. The other benefit at the minute is he is one of the few stand alone talents in that age bracket so he is sure to receive a wildcard onto next seasons tour, meaning if he didn’t qualify automatically he will get there. Imagine if he failed automatically and wasn’t given a place after he should have been there two years in a row.

The problem arising in that if there are several young players with equal ability that are refused because of the age despite doing enough to qualify, then when they are old enough fail to do so…..you can’t give wild cards to them all.

Its not an easy decision and I think World snooker will decline because the onus should be on them to provide private tutoring and counselling which will be costly!

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

the biggest problem with kids in snooker is when they talented like Brecel they are told from a very young age how good they are and if someone tells them right you now a professional they expect to succeed at the top very quickly because its drummed in to them how good they are but thats a problem at 14 or 17 but the question is are you more likely to accept failure better at 17 than you would at 14 ?

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby The Cueist

wildJONESEYE wrote:the biggest problem with kids in snooker is when they talented like Brecel they are told from a very young age how good they are and if someone tells them right you now a professional they expect to succeed at the top very quickly because its drummed in to them how good they are but thats a problem at 14 or 17 but the question is are you more likely to accept failure better at 17 than you would at 14 ?


In my opinion the age of playing professional snooker should be kept as it is,Any younger than 16 is putting too much on them,They are still learning to become adults.

They need to take a good brace of losses in amateur play before they can deal with being a tour pro and to have any idea how to handle losing situations by virtue of experienced gained as young amateurs.

It just stands to reson and is really a no brainer.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

thats the thing a brilliant young player comes in to the pro ranks not experienced failure that much they are the top dog at that level then thinking ill breeze past journeymen pros and face Ronnie but truth is they never get to face Ronnie or top players and bang it hits them its not that simple.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Noel

The kids that we're talking about, Luca Brecel is a good example, are not "normal" children to begin with.
Luca is one out of BILLIONS of people.
Of course they're going to have wierd lives no matter what. But they will be coddled and cared for, believe me.
Even my neice, who was a pretty good competitive swimmer at age 12, was provided a swimming coach,
a motivational psycholigist, a nutritionist, a physical therapist by her swim club, plus she had two doting
parents to drive her around every morning at 5am and out of town to swim meets on weekends.
This is not unusual for "gifted" athletes in any sport.
Was Hendry or O'Sullivan CRUSHED as early competitors?

If they changed the rules to allow in 14 year olds would there be a stampede of pre-adolescent snooker players
to get on the MT? Not.
If a kids can earn a berth... let them.


=o|

Noel

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

yes but kids are meant to be kids thats the argument against it.

you get parents pushing kids in to it im not saying all are obviously not everyone is but the younger they are the more control parents got.

im not criticising anyone here but if i was 12 with a swimming coach, a motivational psycholigist, a nutritionist, a physical therapist by her swim club id feel like saying noooooooooooooooooooooooo get lost but at 12 you would still go along with it against my will because they know best.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Noel

wildJONESEYE wrote:yes but kids are meant to be kids thats the argument against it.


These are EXCEPTIONAL kids wild. They were born to do this thing...

Think Tiger Woods...

Woods grew up in Orange County, California. He was a child prodigy, introduced to golf before the age of two, by his athletic father Earl, who was a good standard amateur golfer and one of the earliest Negro college baseball players at Kansas State University. In 1978, Tiger putted against comedian Bob Hope in a television appearance on The Mike Douglas Show. Before turning three, Tiger entered and won the Under Age 10 section of the Drive, Pitch, and Putt competition, held at the Navy Golf Course in Cypress, California. At age three, he shot a 48 over nine holes over the Cypress Navy course, and at age five, he appeared in Golf Digest and on ABC's That's Incredible. In 1984 at the age of eight, he won the 9–10 boys' event, the youngest age group available, at the Junior World Golf Championships. He first broke 80 at age eight. He went on to win the Junior World Championships six times, including four consecutive wins from 1988 to 1991... the rest is history...

It's like all the idiots who think Ronnie should be more "normal".
That's NEVER going to happen and thank God for rare, gifted individuals like this in any field of human endeavour.

Exceptional anything needs exceptional care.


=o|

Noel

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

yes lets think tiger or his new name shagger woods..

a kid that grows up thinking he can do what he wants hurt who he wants because hes Tiger Woods.

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Noel

Mybad for starting the Woods reference which is a touch off-topic but to help make your comment a bit more
snooker oriented...

wildJONESEYE wrote:a kid that grows up thinking he can do what he wants hurt who he wants because hes Tiger Woods Alex Higgins.



=o(

Noel

Re: THE KIDS ARE ALRIGHT

Postby Wildey

Noel wrote:Mybad for starting the Woods reference which is a touch off-topic but to help make your comment a bit more
snooker oriented...

wildJONESEYE wrote:a kid that grows up thinking he can do what he wants hurt who he wants because hes Tiger Woods Alex Higgins.



=o(

Noel

Exactly and Alex was 22 ....im not saying kids shouldnt be pros but there needs to be assesements to make sure they are up to it.