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Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Tubberlad

This was one of Hearn's promises, and so far he is doing a reasonably good job in this respect. I'm going to remain cautious about his plans, I certainly don't agree with everything he does, but overall I like the man, his plans are well thought out, and don't lack in variety.

You look at the major darts tournaments, and it's easy to see why the sport has thrived in recent times. Each one has an identity and brings it's own qualities to the table.

So what about snooker? Well let's have a look...

Shanghai Masters: Maybe needs something to distinguish itself from the China Open, perhaps a new innovative format (no, not shot clocks or something that messes with the general 22 ball dynamic). Otherwise, it's a great tournament, always provides entertainment. Not in dire need of restructuring, that's for sure.

World Open: Well, it's a random draw FA Cup style tournament. I'm not sure about best-of-5's, or a best of 9 final, but otherwise, I think it's an excellent idea. Introduce the top players a bit later, non-stop action, exciting draws for sure... looking forward to this one.

PTC: Look, we've got to be patient. The first few events didn't have televised coverage, nor were they open to audiences, but I think that was the best decision for now. The first PTC event was a little bit chaotic schedule-wise by the sounds of it, and that's no more than we could have expected. Hearn needs to test the water a bit, get the faults ironed out. The ranking points are a crucial addition, otherwise these events would carry no substance. Not massive points on offer but why would there be? Over the course of twelve events, you have 24,000 points to play for, and that's an awful lot. The prize money is substantial considering it's a twelve event series, and is only held over a few days. Let's look at the EPTC to see what we can really expect in the future. It's open to the public, and should be a good advertisement in Mainland Europe. Should form the bread and butter of the tour, and I'd be surprised if we don't have audiences for the PTC next year. Give it time.

UK Championship: It's my second favourite tournament, but the casual viewer probably isn't aware of it's significance. The UK needs to be billed as the second biggest event. I'd love a longer semi-final and final, and if that meant a shorter opening round or two, so be it. Best of 31 final would be ideal, but it's unlikely. New venue (Telford is amazingly unpopular with fans), bring back the Guild Hall I say.

Masters: It's perfect. More raucous crowd, elite line-up, sensible format. Always brings drama, and has identity in buckets.

European Masters: If what we're hearing is true, we'll have four tables and no divides. Innovative? Yup, I like it, should bring a different feel. Not to mention, it's a badly needed Mainland Europe ranker.

Welsh Open: This is a problem one. I think it should be re-named (Welsh Open sounds intensely boring), and ought to be given a format change. I've always advocated a sets format, and I think the Welsh Open is a perfect candidate.

China Open: It's a great tournament, has that Oriental feel to it. I'd re-name it (again with the China Open, Welsh Open, Irish Open, Scottish Open... yawn), but other than that it's a great event.

World Championship: Perfection, barring the late start to the final on the bank holiday Monday. It's the Grand-daddy, longest format, stick to traditions, firmly the 'test match cricket' of snooker. The purist's dream, and rich in drama.

PTC Finals: It's a great idea. 24 players, rewarded for consistency, and an exciting finals series. Will probably have TV coverage, crowds and may be seen as the fourth major.

Thoughts?

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Casey

Pretty much sport on although I would be fine with a best of 27 UK final. – meaning the first session can be played on the same day as the last SF.

The Shanghai Masters and the China Open are far enough apart in the calendar that their similar format isn’t to much of an issue.

The Welsh Open is struggling with the least amount of ranking points and money on offer. Group stages have been done and whilst they are very enjoyable they are open to corruption. What about a double elimination system?

PTC, bo7’s are 100% more than he had initially thought <ok>

World Open, I would have had a longer final, best of 11 at least.

UK championship –

1st round – Bo11
2nd round Bo11
QF – Bo 19
SF – Bo25
F – Bo27

This would give the audience more frames from form players.

Masters & Worlds I wouldn’t change a thing.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

id like to see the china open given longer formats maybee best of 9 quarters and semis to start with .

but it is important to give tournaments identity at the moment they could play the china open in wales ...its the same tournament in different countries.

theres so much different veriations they could do with frames and not shorten matches.

sets like you mentioned then theres winning by 2 clear frames.

World Open is a great concept but all in all best of 5s are on the boring side by the time you get in to a match its over but needs must and all that.

but your right veriaty is the spice of life and so far barry hearn has a good mix and the important thing getting players out there working.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

Regarding the Round Robin being open to corruption if you put Ranking Points or Money on each frame win that should stop that happening in dead matches.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Casey

wildJONESEYE wrote:Regarding the Round Robin being open to corruption if you put Ranking Points or Money on each frame win that should stop that happening in dead matches.


I think in the GP the higher up the table you finished the more ranking points you got. However yes if they were paid by frame that would help for sure <ok>

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Tubberlad

The mistakes they made with the Grand Prix:
48 players was too much
6 in a group was too much
No capacity for draws. Therefore it came down to wins which left a lot of room for ties, and complicated tie break systems.

If you went for eight groups of four, sixteen games a day, four tables, groups over within three days, easy to organise.

Best of six frames, with matches ending once you reach four. Three all is a draw.

However... to be honest, I don't like round robins. A lot of dead rubber matches. Would prefer a double-elimination tournament, but that would be a mare to organise

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

how would double elimination work ?

does it mean every player would have to lose twice to get knocked out ?

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Tubberlad

wildJONESEYE wrote:how would double elimination work ?

does it mean every player would have to lose twice to get knocked out ?

That's basically it. It's used in other sports, mainly ice hockey I think, I've heard worse ideas, but better also. Oragnisation wise, it isn't ideal.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Tubberlad

Just though of something Case... a double elimination system could probably work if you used something like the back door systems in the GAA Championship?

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

For Snooker Where frames can take a long time that would have to be best of 5s or even best of 3 to get through the volume of matches with that.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Tubberlad

wildJONESEYE wrote:For Snooker Where frames can take a long time that would have to be best of 5s or even best of 3 to get through the volume of matches with that.

It's not really feasible to be honest. Wouldn't be mad about the idea...

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

no i guess not but it is important to give tournements their own feel a quote from Mark Allen on World Snooker sais “I’d hate to see any changes to the World Championship, UK Championship or The Masters but as far as anything else goes I will embrace the changes.”. that pretty much sums it up really as you say calling everything open or masters even is boring and sound similar.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Casey

thetubberlad wrote:Just though of something Case... a double elimination system could probably work if you used something like the back door systems in the GAA Championship?


Yes and it terms of fitting it in it could work something like this -

Front door matches (no loses) Best of 9 on one of the main 4 tables (3 televised probably)

If you lose you have to play several other matches against other losers to whittle it down to 4 players, to save time there will have to be 'outside' tables organised so there is no TV coverage for going this route. Best of 5's or 7 for these matches.

This would make players want to win the tournament without losing, also the prize money could be set so its is lower if you go out of the tournament in the double elimination side.

Basically if you don’t lose you will have at least 3 fewer matches to play to get to the final. It would be a great idea!!

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Rocket_ron

Noel wrote:To be bald about it.
I don't give a rat's ass what a tournament "looks" like.
I just want to "see" it.
Barry... please

= o/
Noel

thats true snooker is snoooker. as long as i get to see my fave platers play then im happy

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby SnookerFan

Tubber, when it comes to the World Open, I agree with you 100% Nice idea for a format, but the matches are just too short. A best of nine is an opening match, not a final.

I have to say though, since I went to the Welsh Open, I've got a whole new appreciation for the tournament. Newport itself is a craphole, but from what I've heard from others, those that have been also agree with me. As a smaller ranker it's actually pretty good, just not promoted well.

Not decided on the TIC yet. Been twice, and don't think it's as bad as people say if just basing it on the venue. I think the TIC is 100 times better then Wembley. But that's not saying much. The Arena, as oppose to the Conference Centre, is a souless atmoshphere-less place. The shouting you see on television, is the only atmosphere you get. No interaction between fans, no chance to meet any of the players unless you are lightning striking twice lucky, and they don't let you in until 15 minutes before matches. The tournaments good, and it's local to me, so I go every year. I went alone for the first time this year, boring. Telford itself is a ghost town, so maybe Birmingham would be a better option. (But I assume having it in Telford is cheaper then the second city.) But the TIC may not be great, but it's not the least good venue in my opinion.

Other then that, most of what you say is pretty spot on. The UK does need marketing badly, so people know of it. Even people in Telford don't know it's on. The Welsh Open needs to be marketed better.

I think once the creases have been ironed out we need the PTC on television. Preferably not Sky, but make it more mainstream. <ok>

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

Regarding the Welsh Open and promotion it is promoted here in Wales extreamly well theres many items on BBC Wales leading up to it BBC Wales Radio mentions it all the time ...Promotion of the Welsh here in Wales is Second to the World Championship.

the problem is how its persieved in England and other countries and rewarding it less ranking points to others makes people think its a crap event when reality is theres no different between it and china Open or Shanghai Masters.

they are identical tournaments played in different places and because of how the Welsh is persieved Ranking points etc people wrongly thinks its crap.

yes they need different identities but do not kid yourselves its worst than China.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby SnookerFan

Actually, Tubber, one thing I did forget to ask. What's wrong with The Welsh Open as a name? It's no more boring then The China Open. Or do you think The China Open sounds more exotic as China is far away?

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

SnookerFan wrote:Actually, Tubber, one thing I did forget to ask. What's wrong with The Welsh Open as a name? It's no more boring then The China Open. Or do you think The China Open sounds more exotic as China is far away?

thats the point a bit here its seen as more exotic a tournament if its overseas but its the same tournament exactly.

to be fair with tubber what he said was calling everything open is boring but seeing as the Welsh was the first of the current tournament called OPEN then they got copyright on the name

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby SnookerFan

wildJONESEYE wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Actually, Tubber, one thing I did forget to ask. What's wrong with The Welsh Open as a name? It's no more boring then The China Open. Or do you think The China Open sounds more exotic as China is far away?

thats the point a bit here its seen as more exotic a tournament if its overseas but its the same tournament exactly.

to be fair with tubber what he said was calling everything open is boring but seeing as the Welsh was the first of the current tournament called OPEN then they got copyright on the name


Do you think in Shanghai that they think Newport is a mystical, far away place? <laugh>

If anything, I don't like the name, The World Open. It was a bit better when I realised it meant it was open to the whole world, but it still sounds a bit divvy when you the Welsh Open, The China Open etc and then have The World Open. Are China and Wales not in The World? <laugh>

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

persanally i think its time the World Open keeps the name Open and change china and Wales.

after all the World Open is actually open to anyone from anywhere.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby SnookerFan

wildJONESEYE wrote:persanally i think its time the World Open keeps the name Open and change china and Wales.

after all the World Open is actually open to anyone from anywhere.


The China Challenge? No that's rubbish. The China Trophy? I never liked that as a tournament title. A trophy is the thing you hold at the end, not the name of a tournament.

We should all try and think of something.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby N_Castle07

I would love to see another three events added to next season PTC called the APTC or CPTC held in china. There is a lot of dedicated Asian players who have to travel to the UK for qualifiers it would be great for them to have a few PTC’s to gain valuable ranking points. Hearn might not like the idea because a lot of the big UK players may not want to travel to China just to play in a 3 day minor ranking event. But if it was organized so that it could be scheduled around the same time the players where in china for the likes of the China Open, Shanghai Open, and Wuxi (if it gains ranking event status next season) I think it could work. What do you guys think?

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Wildey

Remember in the 80s the Yamaha Organs Trophy one year they had 3 way matches including the final it was a fore runner to the British Open.

you had in the 1984 final Steve Davis,Dave Martin and John Dunning

Steve won with Dave Martin Second and John Dunning third

basically you had each player playing against each other to see who won

Steve Davis v Dave Martin
Dave Martin v John Dunning
John Dunning v Steve Davis

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby N_Castle07

wildJONESEYE wrote:Remember in the 80s the Yamaha Organs Trophy one year they had 3 way matches including the final it was a fore runner to the British Open.

you had in the 1984 final Steve Davis,Dave Martin and John Dunning

Steve won with Dave Martin Second and John Dunning third

basically you had each player playing against each other to see who won

Steve Davis v Dave Martin
Dave Martin v John Dunning
John Dunning v Steve Davis


Like a quick fire mini PL in a way. I like it.

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Casey

wildJONESEYE wrote:Remember in the 80s the Yamaha Organs Trophy one year they had 3 way matches including the final it was a fore runner to the British Open.

you had in the 1984 final Steve Davis,Dave Martin and John Dunning

Steve won with Dave Martin Second and John Dunning third

basically you had each player playing against each other to see who won

Steve Davis v Dave Martin
Dave Martin v John Dunning
John Dunning v Steve Davis


No I didn’t know that but that’s where pot black should have went!

Re: Each tournament with it's own identity

Postby Tubberlad

Snookerfan, I say both the Welsh and China Open's have boring names. Call Wales the International Trophy, and the China Open the World Matchplay, or something. You get my drift when I say name change? And a format change perhaps...

Case, I like the idea of a back door, and shorter matches during the back door <ok>


   

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