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Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Tubberlad

Above all other games, I feel snooker is by far the most challenging from a mental aspect. It's one thing to possess natural ability, but all that talent can become watered down significantly by a lack of self belief and mental edge. Just ask the likes of Judd Trump, Jamie Cope, Matthew Stevens, Ryan Day and even Ronnie O'Sullivan to a certain extent.

A mentally strong game is a compulsory requirement for any player. The ability to put a ghastly error to the back of your mind, or play on in spite. The ability to close out the biggest match of your life. It's what snooker is all about... but who does it best?

Stephen Hendry:
A nine-times World Championship finalist, Hendry has had a great return from those finals: no less than a record seven Crucible wins. Having watched Hendry's performances from his glory days, you can see why many people rate him as the greatest ever.

There's that niggling feeling that he's just not going to miss. When White missed that famous black in 1994, you had to know Hendry was not going to commit a similar error. It just wasn't in his make up. Likewise, he showed remarkable mental stamina to take an 8-14 deficit and turn it into a near flawless ten winning frames. When all men doubted him, and said he was slowly declining, what did he do in 1999? He overcame a fine array of players, and took the title. What a way to answer the critics.

And when someone wants to send you back to your sad life in Scotland? There's one way of answering, and it's a lot better than mouthing off.

Peter Ebdon:
Tenacity personified, Ebdon is one of the best players ever seen in the mental stakes. Okay, in recent years his performances have taken a tumble, but anyone lucky enough to have watched Ebdon's great mental stamina will tell you how tough he is to drag off the table.

Think back to 2002, and that semi-final against Matthew Stevens. 14-16 down, Stevens was one ball away from making the final. He missed. Ebdon proceeded to clear the table. It wasn't Higgins 82 or anything, but it was a great clearance under massive pressure. And he won that game.

Two days later, 17-16 up against Stephen Hendry, he missed a simple shot when just four shots from the title. As Hendry cleared the table in relief, most men would have folded. A seven times World Champion, in a deciding frame of the biggest game of all, having never done it yourself. What did Ebdon do? He took that decider, and the 2002 World Championship.

The 2005 Quarter-final with Ronnie will always leave fans of the Rocket in dismay, and disrespect towards Ebdon. But to play at that pace, grinding your opponent down, and coming from 8-2 down? That took serious mental stamina, and I see it as a masterpiece of grit and determination.

Graeme Dott:
Never considered the msot naturally blessed of snooker player, Dott has tasted much success. The diminutive Scot make up for his stature with a towering mental game. Three World Finals, including a win in 2006? No fluke. He also won the China Open final in 2007, and reached number two in the world. Not bad.

Dott has overcome depression, and how great it is to hear such good news today amidst all the recent controversy. But it's typical of the guy really. Think back to 2006. 15-7 goes to 16-14. Ebdon takes a 59 point lead, and the pressure is at it's greatest. Dott clears the table, and eventually takes the title. Superb.

John Higgins:
Let's put recent events aside and disect this great player's fantastic game. Who would you rate as the best player in a deciding frame situation? For me, this guy wins every time.

How many times have we seen him taking matches in the sudden death situation? Think back to 2009, when he beat Jamie Cope and Mark Selby (after two deciding frame re-racks). What a force in the mental stakes.

As for the UK Championship game with Ronnie? From 8-2 to 8-8? How many people would have just thrown in the towel there and then? Many, I would think. Not Higgins.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Witz78

thetubberlad wrote:Above all other games, I feel snooker is by far the most challenging from a mental aspect. It's one thing to possess natural ability, but all that talent can become watered down significantly by a lack of self belief and mental edge. Just ask the likes of Judd Trump, Jamie Cope, Matthew Stevens, Ryan Day and even Ronnie O'Sullivan to a certain extent.

A mentally strong game is a compulsory requirement for any player. The ability to put a ghastly error to the back of your mind, or play on in spite. The ability to close out the biggest match of your life. It's what snooker is all about... but who does it best?

Stephen Hendry:
A nine-times World Championship finalist, Hendry has had a great return from those finals: no less than a record seven Crucible wins. Having watched Hendry's performances from his glory days, you can see why many people rate him as the greatest ever.

There's that niggling feeling that he's just not going to miss. When White missed that famous black in 1994, you had to know Hendry was not going to commit a similar error. It just wasn't in his make up. Likewise, he showed remarkable mental stamina to take an 8-14 deficit and turn it into a near flawless ten winning frames. When all men doubted him, and said he was slowly declining, what did he do in 1999? He overcame a fine array of players, and took the title. What a way to answer the critics.

And when someone wants to send you back to your sad life in Scotland? There's one way of answering, and it's a lot better than mouthing off.

Peter Ebdon:
Tenacity personified, Ebdon is one of the best players ever seen in the mental stakes. Okay, in recent years his performances have taken a tumble, but anyone lucky enough to have watched Ebdon's great mental stamina will tell you how tough he is to drag off the table.

Think back to 2002, and that semi-final against Matthew Stevens. 14-16 down, Stevens was one ball away from making the final. He missed. Ebdon proceeded to clear the table. It wasn't Higgins 82 or anything, but it was a great clearance under massive pressure. And he won that game.

Two days later, 17-16 up against Stephen Hendry, he missed a simple shot when just four shots from the title. As Hendry cleared the table in relief, most men would have folded. A seven times World Champion, in a deciding frame of the biggest game of all, having never done it yourself. What did Ebdon do? He took that decider, and the 2002 World Championship.

The 2005 Quarter-final with Ronnie will always leave fans of the Rocket in dismay, and disrespect towards Ebdon. But to play at that pace, grinding your opponent down, and coming from 8-2 down? That took serious mental stamina, and I see it as a masterpiece of grit and determination.

Graeme Dott:
Never considered the msot naturally blessed of snooker player, Dott has tasted much success. The diminutive Scot make up for his stature with a towering mental game. Three World Finals, including a win in 2006? No fluke. He also won the China Open final in 2007, and reached number two in the world. Not bad.

Dott has overcome depression, and how great it is to hear such good news today amidst all the recent controversy. But it's typical of the guy really. Think back to 2006. 15-7 goes to 16-14. Ebdon takes a 59 point lead, and the pressure is at it's greatest. Dott clears the table, and eventually takes the title. Superb.

John Higgins:
Let's put recent events aside and disect this great player's fantastic game. Who would you rate as the best player in a deciding frame situation? For me, this guy wins every time.

How many times have we seen him taking matches in the sudden death situation? Think back to 2009, when he beat Jamie Cope and Mark Selby (after two deciding frame re-racks). What a force in the mental stakes.

As for the UK Championship game with Ronnie? From 8-2 to 8-8? How many people would have just thrown in the towel there and then? Many, I would think. Not Higgins.


Quinten Hann..............he was easily the most mental of all time rofl

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Monique

SnookerFan wrote:I think Ronnie O'Sullivan.



Just kidding.


Well you shouldn't. Achieving what he has suffering from bipolar disorder requires a hell of a lot of courage and strength. Nobody will ever accuse Graeme Dott of weakness and just look where he stood when battling depression. He didn't win a match in 16 months...

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Monique

wildJONESEYE wrote:yes but you cant call him mentally strong mon he has won despite his mental state.


It all depends on what you brand "strong" Wild. Who is the most courageous, the one who knows no fear or the one who overcomes fear?
I'm not looking for an argument, here. I just want to put forward that there is more than one way to look at things.
If the question is who is the less vulnerable? who has no or little frailties? then obvious I'd say a young Hendry. Young. Because since he has got battle scars the vulnerabilities appeared. Or Ebdon indeed. Or Murphy.
If the question is who shows the strongest will power and courage to overcome their frailties, then I think ROS and DOTT qualify big time.
Last edited by Monique on 26 May 2010, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Wildey

na you got a good point there maybe someone weaker mentally couldnt even hold a cue infront of a live audience suffering from bipolar.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Tubberlad

I don't think O'Sullivan is a weak player mentally. Players who are weak mentally don't win World Championships. O'Sullivan has won three. O'Sullivan fears none of the players. Ok Selby seems to be getting under his skin, but he doesn't instil fear I would say. However, O'Sullivan can hardly be described as a powerhouse of strong mentality either, we have seen him totally crack in games, but I will admit that at times his condition does play havoc. I'm not sure about your comparison with Dott though Mon... ok, he didnt win any games, but his form of depression is totally different to O'Sullivan's. Ronnie's permits bursts of great feeling and confidence... Dott just felt down all the time. I've been there, and I'd like to think I can relate to Dott and understand him somewhat. It's impossible at times to do even the things that once came naturally... in graeme's case, playing snooker. There's not many who could battle that and get back to achieving great things like Dott has.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Tubberlad

I hate to speak ill of Hunter, because I did warm to him as a player and a person, and what happened him was the worst thing that's happened the sport (puts the Higgins incident into perspective people). But I saw a couple of questionable losses from him at the Crucible. 2003, I hate to say it, he bottled it against Doherty (not taking anything away from Ken, he played very, very well), and against Stevens a year later. I think he lost a big lead against Hann another year.

I know where you're coming from though Rocket, those great Masters comebacks :)

But I still think he trailed Dott in the mentality stakes by a long, long way.

Robertson & Selby are going the right way I feel <ok>

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Rocket_ron

thetubberlad wrote:I hate to speak ill of Hunter, because I did warm to him as a player and a person, and what happened him was the worst thing that's happened the sport (puts the Higgins incident into perspective people). But I saw a couple of questionable losses from him at the Crucible. 2003, I hate to say it, he bottled it against Doherty (not taking anything away from Ken, he played very, very well), and against Stevens a year later. I think he lost a big lead against Hann another year.

I know where you're coming from though Rocket, those great Masters comebacks :)

But I still think he trailed Dott in the mentality stakes by a long, long way.

Robertson & Selby are going the right way I feel <ok>

<ok> :D

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Wildey

i think paul did enough in the masters alone to deserve a mention on this thread however i tend to agree with tubber his death was so tragic and so young with a young family starting out together that in death his career is looked at not entirely as it actually was.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Monique

thetubberlad wrote:I don't think O'Sullivan is a weak player mentally. Players who are weak mentally don't win World Championships. O'Sullivan has won three. O'Sullivan fears none of the players. Ok Selby seems to be getting under his skin, but he doesn't instil fear I would say. However, O'Sullivan can hardly be described as a powerhouse of strong mentality either, we have seen him totally crack in games, but I will admit that at times his condition does play havoc. I'm not sure about your comparison with Dott though Mon... ok, he didnt win any games, but his form of depression is totally different to O'Sullivan's. Ronnie's permits bursts of great feeling and confidence... Dott just felt down all the time. I've been there, and I'd like to think I can relate to Dott and understand him somewhat. It's impossible at times to do even the things that once came naturally... in graeme's case, playing snooker. There's not many who could battle that and get back to achieving great things like Dott has.


Well what I mean is that when ROS is low, just to come and play, not to mention to win - which he did quite a number of times, even heavily depressed - requires huge power of will and strength. ROS condition is such that depressive episodes are more frequent and much deeper than the "highs". BTW he doesn't win when he's on highs ... that's when he does silly things. When Dott was down he was unable to win anything and, as he said himself, felt unable to play. Dott is a courageous and gritty person and none ever branded him weak. Well ROS is certainly not weak neither, quite the contrary. But he is vulnerable which is different.
I haven't seen Dott close-up when he was down, but I have seen ROS and I can assure you that at times even the very normal every day things, even those things he normally enjoys, are a terrible struggle. And every social interaction is extremely difficult to cope with.
Last edited by Monique on 27 May 2010, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby N_Castle07

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Davis yet. Davis set the bar for playing under pressure he was consistently strong mentally, and the desire and strength he showed hadn’t been seen before. Hendry raised the bar and is the greatest mentally strong player of all time IMO. He lived up to the name “Iceman” time and time again and as already mentioned early in this thread he never looked like missing in real pressure situations. John Higgins another great mentally strong player and as thetubberlad mentioned Higgins is great in final frame deciders. In the final frame decider situation when the pundits are asked who they think will win they normally always reply with “coin flip.” But when Higgins is in this situation they predict him to be the winner.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Wildey

Davis yes he was pretty good but not in the same league as Hendry or Ebdon mentally.

John Higgins is another during most of his career mentally he was suspect a great front runner but not under pressure i felt but in resent years especially last years World Championship he did prove how strong he is with the matches he had to come through to win.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Wildey

dont think Parrott was the strongest mentally a great player and obviously he was strong but of the players you mentioned id put him last.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby paperbackwriter

mediter wrote:I would say Mark Selby or John Higgins

Though I understand why some people mention Selby, I disagree. It's just a casual observation and I may be completely wrong but still- for me he isn't strong mentally in the sense in which for example Hendry is (or was at some point). Selby may be able to partially fight his nervousness but before every important match he looks like he could break down any second. He also shows it while playing at times (I'd even associate these annoying jokes with it).

If I had to pick one, I wouldn't have thought of anyone other than Hendry. But Dott and Davis also impress me when it comes to mental strength.

Re: Who is the strongest mental player of all time?

Postby Roland

Selby reminds me of McManus in that sense - you know he's got bottle because you can visibly see when he's under the cosh which you can't with players like Hendry and Ronnie. In a way it's more admirable because they are fighting the pressure so hard but also when they do miss you are waiting for it.

The reason I like players like this is because their body language sends out a message to the opponent so even if they are free flowing themselves, they feel more pressure than they would against one of their own and therefore miss more balls themselves.


   

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