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What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby GreenRiver

Hi there.

I'm a new member of the forum and I've only recently started following snooker so please go easy on me (not sure how to do a smiley!). I'm here to learn.

My question is:

After Stephen Hendry was so dominant in the 1990s why was he unable to win any of the big 3 triple crown events again after that?

I realise he got older but he was still only 30 at the start of the millenium which I wouldn't describe as old even for a sportsman. Ray Reardon won all of his 6 world titles at a much older age (5 of them in his 40s). Ronnie O'Sullivan has won a lot in recent years in spite of plenty of well documented personal problems and he is pushing 40.

Did the other players get better or did Hendry deteriorate? Was it psychological? Was it a confidence problem?

I realise it is difficult to speculate and perhaps even Hendry himself doesn't really know the cause/s but I would be interested to hear the thoughts of people who followed snooker at this time about what happened to Hendry.

Was it a shock at the time when Hendry's dominance ended or had there been warning signs that he was past his best even in winning his last few championships?

Thanks everyone.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby vodkadiet

When he surpassed Davis's 6 world titles he had no motivation left. He couldn't 'get it up' any more!

His 1999 win was the icing on the cake, and everything after that was an anti-climax.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby GreenRiver

vodkadiet wrote:When he surpassed Davis's 6 world titles he had no motivation left. He couldn't 'get it up' any more!

His 1999 win was the icing on the cake, and everything after that was an anti-climax.


Interesting point about motivation. I was reading about Elvis recently. In January 1973, Elvis became the first performer to do a live concert that was beamed around the world via satellite. His health started to rapidly deteriorate immediately afterwards. The theory is that, by this point, Elvis had achieved all there was to achieve in the Music business so there were no challenges left for him and this strongly contributed to his demise. This could be analogous to Hendry in the snooker world. Where do you go when you reach the top? What do you do when you've done it all? What is there left to motivate you?

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby NNear

-Very strong following generation spearheaded by O'Sullivan, Higgins and Williams reaching maturity.
-Had won everything there was to win and wasn't quite as hungry.


There's no real excuse for Hendry not winning a Triple Crown event after the 90's as he is definitely not worse than those 3, but having to deal with such a monstrous generation that are -also- hungrier is an incredibly difficult ordeal unless you are at 100% in all departments with the same verve and drive as before.

I point you to Roger Federer trying to deal with Nadal and Djokovic (and Murray). Federer did manage to win big titles ''post peak/prime'' or whatever but it's clear to me that generally his motivation has been sustained better than Hendry's was. Shame for Hendry really because he doesn't face the same level of physical challenges that Federer faces in tennis right now as he continues to swim up river. So really Hendry should have achieved more in his post peak years, but came up short. It has to be said though that the generation which followed him is probably the strongest in history and may not be surpassed for a very long time.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby NNear

It wasn't shocking to me really. I was just a naive kid assuming the new kids on the block would overhaul the older legend soon enough, and just happened on this occasion to be right. But I kept asking my dad, why isn't Ronnie world champion yet? Still, watching Higgins get in there first and take the #1 ranking was very satisfying at the time.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Sickpotter

A combination of things.

He'd beat the records he set out to, nothing left to accomplish really.

He had a kid, takes the focus off the game and puts it on the family. This always results in a player dropping form.

Towards the end he came down with the yips. Inexplicable issue that many top professionals encounter, very little you can do to fix it. It goes away or it doesn't.

Other strong players coming into their own (Higgins, Williams and Ronnie) while Hendry was beginning to fade contributed as well.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby SnookerFan

I think motivation is certainly a part of it.

For some players, winning The Crucible is a lifetime ambition accomplished. But Hendry's ambition was to overtake Davis. He did that in terms of ranking events won, and more importantly perhaps, in World Titles won. At 7 he'd broken the record. You could argue that once the record is broken, where's the motivation? He's already won the tournament seven bloody times, what more is there to prove?

Obviously there are other factors. He was getting older, and there were younger players coming up. And he never wanted to become a player who relied on safety, so he kept playing an attacking game despite the fact he wasn't as good at it any more. Steve Davis modified his game and was a top-16er into his 50s, Hendry didn't have the mentality and decided to retire rather than drop down the rankings.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Cannonball

He hit 30 and got found out when MJW, Higgins and Ronnie turned up, and even Ebdon and Lee. Also, the standard in Hendry's era was poor and not much different to Davis' generation, so it was easy for one good player to dominate. White was his biggest threat and he was coked to heaven. It was a pretty poor era in terms of competition. The top 16 had no real threat either; a private members club protected from competition in effect. The next generation were simply better and it's arguable that the new generation of MJW/Higgins/Ronnie were the best ever in terms of standards.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby PLtheRef

As some have said I think motivation may have had a part to do with it. At a relatively early age he'd achieved what he always described as the one last ambition he'd ever have in the sport, to win that seventh world championship, and even that came later than people would have thought when he lifted the sixth trophy at the age of 27. Having won that, what else was there left to achieve? Obviously the brigade of 92 just began to emerge into their prime towards the end of the 1990s with the silverware shared around a lot more than it was done in the 1980s or early 1990s when Hendry really did begin to dominate. As many would suspect Hendry's form did dip having become a parent but he did still win the Masters, UK and World Championships in his first year as a father. Maybe a dip in confidence having lost a World Championship final for the first time like he did to Doherty where confidence obviously drained as Doherty forged ahead (notably admitting to Doherty that he knew Doherty would get a double he'd been left on a respot to go 7-4 up). People cannot dominate if they see themselves or more importantly are seen to be vulnerable. The end of a 23 match unbeaten run in the UK will only have raised this.

The first sign of the end of the era was losing the final to Mark Williams having led 9-6 and missed what was a relatively straightforward (taking out the pressure of a deciding respot) to take the 1998 Masters title, couple that with first round exits in the World (where he lost the Number 1 spot having had a comfortable margin and needing just to reach the last 16 to keep it) and UK Championships (where he lost to Marcus Campbell 9-0) then the essence of "Yesterdays Man", which he went to the 1999 World Championships with (and less expectations than previously) will have only grown

It could really be a number of factors.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Andre147

PLtheRef wrote:As some have said I think motivation may have had a part to do with it. At a relatively early age he'd achieved what he always described as the one last ambition he'd ever have in the sport, to win that seventh world championship, and even that came later than people would have thought when he lifted the sixth trophy at the age of 27. Having won that, what else was there left to achieve? Obviously the brigade of 92 just began to emerge into their prime towards the end of the 1990s with the silverware shared around a lot more than it was done in the 1980s or early 1990s when Hendry really did begin to dominate. As many would suspect Hendry's form did dip having become a parent but he did still win the Masters, UK and World Championships in his first year as a father. Maybe a dip in confidence having lost a World Championship final for the first time like he did to Doherty where confidence obviously drained as Doherty forged ahead (notably admitting to Doherty that he knew Doherty would get a double he'd been left on a respot to go 7-4 up). People cannot dominate if they see themselves or more importantly are seen to be vulnerable. The end of a 23 match unbeaten run in the UK will only have raised this.

The first sign of the end of the era was losing the final to Mark Williams having led 9-6 and missed what was a relatively straightforward (taking out the pressure of a deciding respot) to take the 1998 Masters title, couple that with first round exits in the World (where he lost the Number 1 spot having had a comfortable margin and needing just to reach the last 16 to keep it) and UK Championships (where he lost to Marcus Campbell 9-0) then the essence of "Yesterdays Man", which he went to the 1999 World Championships with (and less expectations than previously) will have only grown

It could really be a number of factors.


Yes PL very well put, agree with everything you said. I reckon, despite this, Hendry could have really won his 8th Worlds hadn't he taken Ebdon for granted like he did. When he beat Ronnie at the semis, he was so fired up in that match (especially after Ronnie had called him some rude names, partly due to a stupid friend who did Ronnie's head in and made him do that), that when he finnaly beat Ronnie 17-13 and reached the Final Hendry himself has said in an interview that facing Ebdon he had the job done, he really thought beating Ronnie was like title in the bag for him, and it was only a matter of when and not if he would win his 8th Worlds there. Unfortunately for him, things didn't turn out that way and Ebdon has to be said did an amazing job to beat him 18-17.

Hendry wasn't the same player since those losses you rightly mentioned, but that 2002 World Final loss was the final nail in the coffing for him. He still won a few more titles, but nowhere near his best form.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby SnookerFan

The 2002 tournament was the first one I sat down and watched in full. I'd been watching on and off with my gran for years, but I'd never watched it without her. I don't really remember who won what before that either, except some vague memories of Steve Davis winning something. (Which I'm assuming must've been the 1997 Masters.)

At the time, I wanted Hendry to lose because he'd already had it seven times, and Ebdon had never won it. Since then, I became a bit more of a Hendry fan and a lot less of an Ebdon fan, so despite the guy I wanted to win actually winning it, I kind of wish he hadn't in retrospect. rofl

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Wildey

Cannonball wrote:He hit 30 and got found out when MJW, Higgins and Ronnie turned up, and even Ebdon and Lee. Also, the standard in Hendry's era was poor and not much different to Davis' generation, so it was easy for one good player to dominate. White was his biggest threat and he was coked to heaven. It was a pretty poor era in terms of competition. The top 16 had no real threat either; a private members club protected from competition in effect. The next generation were simply better and it's arguable that the new generation of MJW/Higgins/Ronnie were the best ever in terms of standards.

Just Explain What Happened to Mark Williams then? he won 6 majors in 6 years from 98 to 2003 and 28 years of age and has reached only 1 of the Major's Final after that.

At least Hendry has reached 3 Major Finals after his last World Win.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Cloud Strife

Wildey wrote:
Cannonball wrote:He hit 30 and got found out when MJW, Higgins and Ronnie turned up, and even Ebdon and Lee. Also, the standard in Hendry's era was poor and not much different to Davis' generation, so it was easy for one good player to dominate. White was his biggest threat and he was coked to heaven. It was a pretty poor era in terms of competition. The top 16 had no real threat either; a private members club protected from competition in effect. The next generation were simply better and it's arguable that the new generation of MJW/Higgins/Ronnie were the best ever in terms of standards.

Just Explain What Happened to Mark Williams then? he won 6 majors in 6 years from 98 to 2003 and 28 years of age and has reached only 1 of the Major's Final after that.

At least Hendry has reached 3 Major Finals after his last World Win.


Ronnie O'Sullivan happened. And to a lesser extent John Higgins as well.

How many times did Ronnie beat MJW from 2003 onwards? How many major titles did MJW not win because of Ronnie?

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby ANGLO

The notion that after 1999 Hendry wasn't motivated anymore is complete nonsense. He was motivated enough to reach the World Final against Ebdon only to completely underestimate him and lose. He has since stated that it was his biggest career disappointment.
The demise of Hendry actually started when the other 'big 3' O'Sullivan, Higgins & Williams came of age and started to share the tournament wins between themselves. In fact, after 1997, Hendry won very little in comparison to 1990-96. Check the stats.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Wildey

The Demise of Hendry happened when he became a father and although he was Motivated in Competition the same level of dedication and application needed to put in the practice wasent there anymore.

Anyone who thinks Higgins, Williams and O'Sullivan was the reason for that demise im sorry but they are in cloud cuckoo land .

its like a past time by saddos on here to kick Stephen Hendry's achievement for whatever reasons best known in their small pathetic minds.

I Believe Ronnie O'Sullivan has surpassed Hendry as the greatest player now however that does not give any of you the right to Rubbish what hes done. Ronnie O'Sullivan believes Hendry is the Greatest player he has seen and Hendry believes Ronnie is the Greatest he has seen.

up to Last season Hendry was the Greatest however my opinion has changed now.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby NNear

They aren't living in cloud cuckoo land at all. Hendry was never going to dominate to the extent he did in his most prolific winning years against that group of player. And neither was Higgins, or O'Sullivan, or Williams, or anybody else.

It would take a player 1 step beyond Hendry and O'Sullivan to have a realistic shot at Hendryesque dominance over that field.

This isn't to say Hendry wouldn't have won anything - he might have been 'the leading player of the four' - but wouldn't have really dominated, I just can't see it.

He's more focused than the others so I do personally believe he would have got the best of the battle between those 4 had they all collided at the same time, especially as the others liked to go on walkabouts for periods.. sometimes years.

Dominance? If someone truly believes had Hendry remained the same that he would have dominated that scenario, then they are probably admitting that they believe Hendry is a clear step up from O'Sullivan and Higgins, in which case I'd say they're living in cloud cuckoo land.

I give Hendry the benefit of the doubt. I truly believe over a let's say 10 year period against the Higgins generation that he'd have won the most, but only to the extent that Lendl won the most over his contemporaries in tennis in the 80's in an extremely strong and balanced era (in other words not dominant, but the leading legend), rather than Hendry, Federer, Sampras or Woods like domination.

The field matters... a lot. It's hard to get around that fact.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Clara8633

Wildey wrote:The Demise of Hendry happened when he became a father and although he was Motivated in Competition the same level of dedication and application needed to put in the practice wasent there anymore.

Anyone who thinks Higgins, Williams and O'Sullivan was the reason for that demise im sorry but they are in cloud cuckoo land .

its like a past time by saddos on here to kick Stephen Hendry's achievement for whatever reasons best known in their small pathetic minds.

I Believe Ronnie O'Sullivan has surpassed Hendry as the greatest player now however that does not give any of you the right to Rubbish what hes done. Ronnie O'Sullivan believes Hendry is the Greatest player he has seen and Hendry believes Ronnie is the Greatest he has seen.

up to Last season Hendry was the Greatest however my opinion has changed now.


How come you no longer think Hendry is the greatest anymore?

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby TheRocket

vodkadiet wrote:The fact remains that O'Sullivan had to wait until Hendry was well past his best before he could beat him at The Crucible.


You could argue that O'Sullivan wasn't at his best either when Hendry beat him. Standardwise O'Sullivan played his best Snooker in his late 20's and his 30's. The WC 2004 and 2008 are probably the prime examples for that and when he played Hendry in 2004 and demolished him, Hendry still played proper Snooker, having won the British Open the same season(beating O'Sullivan in the final btw).

Apart from that O'Sullivan beat a full prime Hendry in two UK finals.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Wildey

you could have man y arguments from both sides at the end of the day its opinions nothing else and my Opinion is Ronnie is the Greatest Player there's ever been but its so people will have difference of opinion.

Lets not argue the toss both men were incredible players and i for one feel privileged to see them play.

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby Cannonball

Wildey wrote:you could have man y arguments from both sides at the end of the day its opinions nothing else and my Opinion is Ronnie is the Greatest Player there's ever been but its so people will have difference of opinion.

Lets not argue the toss both men were incredible players and i for one feel privileged to see them play.


Yep, agree there. Hendry is the pinnacle of some talent, hard work, technique and determination. He's an inspiration to all of us who don't have extraordinary natural talent but love playing the game.

Ronnie is just the pinnacle full stop. Yes, he practices but his natural talent is a complete phenomenon. There are players with better technique but they still can't beat him. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Rocket!

Re: What caused the end of Hendry's dominance?

Postby The Cueist

Ronnie does stay stiill on his shots it is his sighting up that can be a bit loose of late.

I have never seen Ronnie miss so many blacks off the spot as I have done this season for one reason or another.
P
Ronnie beat Trump on sunday evening gritting his teeth
And playing very determined match play snooker.

He was floundering frm 9 - 5 up and just did enough to stop Trump completing his comeback to win the tournament.

He knows that it wasnt a vintage win by any stretch of tbe imagination.

He was knackered at the end of that final and it showed on his face and his reactions .

He didnt congratulate Trump on having a good tournament and so on as he has done for a good few seasons now , and was just pleased to win but very subdued I think.

I think tbe ankle injury was taking more out of him than he was letting on.

I hope we find him in better condition in Januaty at the masters when he will defend his title .

Masters is a tough tournament and we will see what ronnie has to offer .