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Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Andre147

Roland wrote:https://www.snookerisland.com/blog/flat-128-vs-tiered-what-has-been-the-impact/


Sounds like a very good article, I think I'll have a good look at it when the tournament finishes, I'll maybe read it on Monday or something like that.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Wildey

Great Balanced Article.

Barry Hearn has done a lot right and although i did not agree with it originally the flat 128 is the way to go. BUT There is still a general problem with the UK Championship that needs addressing.

im not going to post here and say Barry done everything right because he hasn't. For me and many others the UK Championship does not feel Right at the moment.

When the matches was reduced from Best of 17 to 11 only in 2011 Barry Hearn said reason for it so that every Match was televised but only 2 years later every match was not televised due to the Flat system (Inconsistent statement).

The UK Needs to stand out from the crowd and feel like a Major event that it is.....At the Moment it hasn't got a different feel from all the other tournaments.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Roland

Well under the Flat 128 it's hard to see how you can give it its own identity apart from keeping it at the same venue.

I'm really interested to see how it's going to work for the Welsh Open next year. That's another 128 to the venue and people will no doubt say it's like a PTC, but the PTC is Flat 128 all at the venue. So rather than thinking of it as being too much like a PTC, you should perhaps look at it as the PTC being the introduction of the Flat 128 as the new standard when compared with Top 16 to the venue facing 16 qualifiers.

I understand the Chinese are still not too happy to embrace Flat 128 so there are plenty of stumbling blocks still ahead for those who are in charge of putting on the ranking events. Let's just hope they come around because it's no guarantee that China will have as many ranking events next season as this. And that's including the World Open being removed from the calendar.

Perhaps the last line about the future being very bright is a bit optimistic because there are still big challenges ahead. But let's face it, who would want to replace the current administration given the progress they have made in the last 5 years?

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Cannonball

The old system was used by the WPBSA for snooker that was UK based. The old system was designed to help keep the old farts who saved snooker and built it in the 70s going, long into their 40s. Something your article didn't touch on; there is no way Chinese sponsors, Venues and players would have been happy with a continued top 16 ruling the roost, to the even greater disadvantage to overseas players. They're not that chuffed that the Worlds are in the UK every year; something I sympathise with. The football world cup moves around, so why not the World Snooker Championships? If this is truly a world sport, then snooker needs to update on every front. Sometime in the future, pundits will talk about the point when snooker being a competitive and professional sport, and the flat 128 draw will probably be that point. All the tournaments should be 128 flat IMO.
Last edited by Cannonball on 08 Dec 2014, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Cannonball

The other thing unaddressed is prize money. I have two friends who are very good snooker players, who really want to commit to it for 30-40hrs a week and go up to Sheffield and enter Q School. To do this, they would have to give up their full time jobs, a gamble that all players have to take on so it's no different for them. But even if they got the card (and entering/hotels are gonna cost £5k), they face a lot of debt thereafter. Yes, the flat nature of some tournaments gives them a chance of a big pay day, to keep them going and keep that card, but the reality is that unless you have a backer with deep pockets or your family are willing to remortgage, you are pretty fcuked by the system as it stands. The pyramid of prize money is wrong in my opinion. The top players are already multi-millionaires and they play as much for the joy of snooker as anything; which is brilliant, that's why we love them. So what we need is more money at the bottom, even if that means less at the top. There's only so much interest WS can generate and only so much sponsor money they can beg. It's great that so many more players can take part now and compete, making snooker a proper world sport, akin to tennis. But we need a better spread of prize money so that these players (64-128) can at least break even and go to events. Some, like the Brazilian chap whose name I forget can't even go to events. This needs sorting out, because it's players like him, who will spread and grow the game in new places, if he can keep going. The same applies to many of our Euro players.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Cannonball

Wildey wrote:Great Balanced Article.

Barry Hearn has done a lot right and although i did not agree with it originally the flat 128 is the way to go. BUT There is still a general problem with the UK Championship that needs addressing.

im not going to post here and say Barry done everything right because he hasn't. For me and many others the UK Championship does not feel Right at the moment.

When the matches was reduced from Best of 17 to 11 only in 2011 Barry Hearn said reason for it so that every Match was televised but only 2 years later every match was not televised due to the Flat system (Inconsistent statement).

The UK Needs to stand out from the crowd and feel like a Major event that it is.....At the Moment it hasn't got a different feel from all the other tournaments.


Something you've missed and is important, is that the broadcasters want best of 11, Barry knows this all too well. So he gives them what they want, because he really has no choice, if he is to grow the game. It is the way the world has gone unfortunately, less is more. People won't sit down for hours and hours and weeks and weeks watching a snooker tournament. More people play pool than snooker now because they are lazy, lack time and energy, and live a couch existence. This is the world cue sports must accommodate. To purists like us, it undermines the contest, but to most people and 'most' people have never even heard of snooker island or even know who is ranked where, they'd like to see a couple of hours of a final and that's enough. Actually, most snooker players I know preferred to play local pool league last night instead, I am not joking! That's how bad things have got and that's why Hearn is at the mercy of the Beeb and others. It's dreadful, but that's the way it is. And even with 11 framers, it was still difficult to get to watch matches, with no choice of the four tables possible. Snooker is very low on the list of Beeb priorities but WS still needs the Beeb. Fingers crossed ITV and Eurosport can up the anty. I'm fed up of the poor treatment and cheese the Beeb apply to snooker. But until there's an alternative, we are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby PLtheRef

Roland wrote:Well under the Flat 128 it's hard to see how you can give it its own identity apart from keeping it at the same venue.

I'm really interested to see how it's going to work for the Welsh Open next year. That's another 128 to the venue and people will no doubt say it's like a PTC, but the PTC is Flat 128 all at the venue. So rather than thinking of it as being too much like a PTC, you should perhaps look at it as the PTC being the introduction of the Flat 128 as the new standard when compared with Top 16 to the venue facing 16 qualifiers.

I understand the Chinese are still not too happy to embrace Flat 128 so there are plenty of stumbling blocks still ahead for those who are in charge of putting on the ranking events. Let's just hope they come around because it's no guarantee that China will have as many ranking events next season as this. And that's including the World Open being removed from the calendar.

Perhaps the last line about the future being very bright is a bit optimistic because there are still big challenges ahead. But let's face it, who would want to replace the current administration given the progress they have made in the last 5 years?


I was a sceptic surrounding the flat 128 draw because I think the comparisons to it were poor, yes Wimbledon and the Tennis Grand Slams use the 128 draw for the tournament but that isn't simply a 128 man entry - players had to come through qualifying and in essence a truer comparison would be saying that all the tennis entries should be playing a flat draw even if it includes playing an opening round at Roehampton the week before.

In practise though it was rushed, it's proven not to be so bad, it may have been more ideal to start it at the beginning of a season rather than trying to bring it in half way through as they did with the Welsh Open in 2013 but the merits of the system have become more and more apparent - with some of the problems on the way to being ironed out such as allowing the reigning champion, reigning world champion and keeping two players of the host country to play their last 128 matches at the venue but the test is coming which will determine if the system is to have any credit. If it is then all the rankers (barring the Crucible) must have the 128 system. Yes you've said that the promoters of the Chinese events aren't happy at embracing the 128 format but the whole credibility of the 128 flat draw format will begin to be undermined if promoters are able to introduce tiered structures to their events. If everything he has said about 128 is to carry weight then it needs retaining for all the tournaments.

You said Roland that it's hard to give a tournament any identity other than its the one which is played in the Barbican, that one that's played in Cardiff etc, Doesn't this just prove some of the problems that stripping some of the key features of the UK Championship had intimated and highlighted. The UK Championship had it's own identity, all the books I've got at home on the sport all describe the tournament as being Unique in that the matches had the longer distance, the 17 frames is what gave it it's identity now we've got a tournament with 11 frame matches bar the final and as Wildey said you play from four to six single session matches and a double session final, which puts it on a comparison with eight other ranking events, it doesn't make it anything like a major like it used to be.

The reason why people see the Welsh as a PTC is that it's in essence a PTC with full ranking status, You spend three days playing best of 7 frame matches, and in the early rounds you play multiple matches on the same day. All standard features of a PTC. It's only in the later stages does it become slightly different to the PTCs.

Yes the game is in a much better state of health than December 2nd 2009 I'm the first to admit that and you cannot knock Hearn for that but too much change (and in some cases change for changes sake) can and probably will cause problems, particularly if he's puts himself on the record with one thing and then does the complete opposite.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby PLtheRef

Cannonball wrote:
Wildey wrote:Great Balanced Article.

Barry Hearn has done a lot right and although i did not agree with it originally the flat 128 is the way to go. BUT There is still a general problem with the UK Championship that needs addressing.

im not going to post here and say Barry done everything right because he hasn't. For me and many others the UK Championship does not feel Right at the moment.

When the matches was reduced from Best of 17 to 11 only in 2011 Barry Hearn said reason for it so that every Match was televised but only 2 years later every match was not televised due to the Flat system (Inconsistent statement).

The UK Needs to stand out from the crowd and feel like a Major event that it is.....At the Moment it hasn't got a different feel from all the other tournaments.


Something you've missed and is important, is that the broadcasters want best of 11, Barry knows this all too well. So he gives them what they want, because he really has no choice, if he is to grow the game. It is the way the world has gone unfortunately, less is more. People won't sit down for hours and hours and weeks and weeks watching a snooker tournament. More people play pool than snooker now because they are lazy, lack time and energy, and live a couch existence. This is the world cue sports must accommodate. To purists like us, it undermines the contest, but to most people and 'most' people have never even heard of snooker island or even know who is ranked where, they'd like to see a couple of hours of a final and that's enough. Actually, most snooker players I know preferred to play local pool league last night instead, I am not joking! That's how bad things have got and that's why Hearn is at the mercy of the Beeb and others. It's dreadful, but that's the way it is. And even with 11 framers, it was still difficult to get to watch matches, with no choice of the four tables possible. Snooker is very low on the list of Beeb priorities but WS still needs the Beeb. Fingers crossed ITV and Eurosport can up the anty. I'm fed up of the poor treatment and cheese the Beeb apply to snooker. But until there's an alternative, we are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.


I am not convinced that it's just the BBC who wants the shorter matches - I think that Hearn sees the BBC as someone to turn the heat onto in the case of backlashes in the cases when there is opposition to changes he makes - i.e. the ones made at the UK Championships. If the Beeb want to drop an event they'll drop it (look at 2010 World Open as an example of this -) in the end it didn't matter how much a governing body follows the broadcasters wishes, if they want to drop it, they will. And if the BBC ever give up on the sport, they'll keep the Crucible for the title of World Championship, just as they keep the Lakeside coverage for kudos.

Hearn is someone experienced in this business and known for being a good negotiator, so you would not expect him of all people to be easily shoved around by broadcasters so I'm not convinced the shortening of matches is simply Hearn following instructions

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Wildey

When i said flat 128 is the way to go i did not mean for the UK.

Australia and Shanghai should be a flat 128 but for the UK it should be different. And played similar to the World Championship this season where theres 128 players trying to Qualify and play the top 16 at the Barbican.

Then

Saturday 6 best of 11 last 32 3 Sessions
Sunday 6 best of 11 last 32 3 Sessions
Monday 4 best of 11 last 32 + 2 best of 11 last 16 3 Sessions
Tuesday 6 best of 11 last 16 3 Sessions
Wednesday 2 Best of 17 Quarter Final 2 Sessions
Thursday 2 Best of 17 Quarter Final 2 Sessions
Friday Best of 17 Semi Final 2 Sessions
Saturday Best of 17 Semi Final 2 Sessions
Sunday Best of 19 Final 2 Sessions

That way its a compromise and all matches are played in the same conditions.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby snooky147

Wildey wrote:When i said flat 128 is the way to go i did not mean for the UK.

Australia and Shanghai should be a flat 128 but for the UK it should be different. And played similar to the World Championship this season where theres 128 players trying to Qualify and play the top 16 at the Barbican.

Then

Saturday 6 best of 11 last 32 3 Sessions
Sunday 6 best of 11 last 32 3 Sessions
Monday 4 best of 11 last 32 + 2 best of 11 last 16 3 Sessions
Tuesday 6 best of 11 last 16 3 Sessions
Wednesday 2 Best of 17 Quarter Final 2 Sessions
Thursday 2 Best of 17 Quarter Final 2 Sessions
Friday Best of 17 Semi Final 2 Sessions
Saturday Best of 17 Semi Final 2 Sessions
Sunday Best of 19 Final 2 Sessions

That way its a compromise and all matches are played in the same conditions.


Absolutely agree with that format mate. I would go as far as make all Main Ranking events like that. Taking 128 to venues (apart from PTC's) is nonsense, and taking 64 to China is not financially feasible for the players.
Also the prize money is way too top heavy to be used as a ranking list.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby shankly

snooky147 wrote:Also the prize money is way too top heavy to be used as a ranking list.


This. The points system was too flat, but now they've swung so far the other way it's ridiculous. The PTC Grand Finals is the biggest culprit. £38,000 for the runner up, £100,000 for the winner! Not only that, there's no way an event with best of 7 semis and final should be considered a full ranking event. I completely agree with rewarding players for supporting the PTCs, but at least have the format of a China Open or something.

BTW: Does anyone else find the PTC Finals counting as a ranking tournament and the Grand Prix/Masters not counting as a bit incongruous? Personally I don't really see the difference between the two.. the PTC finals is a reward for doing well in the PTCs, the Grand Prix is a reward for doing well in the tournaments that season, the Masters is a reward for doing well the past two years. Personally I'd lean towards the PTC finals not counting in the rankings at all, then they can keep the mickey mouse format. Not something I am too bothered by though... Am I completely off base here? What do others think?

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby ANGLO

The 128 format is working well, helping to introduce younger players to tv audiences.

However.....

Steve Davis asks an interesting question on twitter this morning (excuse the 'interesting' pun..).

He asks, 'What's the difference between the format in York and Wimbledon?' Well, there's a very easy answer to that. York does not have the equivalent of 'Centre Court' where elite players are usually asked to play in front of large crowds, which in itself creates a unique atmosphere. If York had a 'Centre Court' table set up, enclosed with spectators all around, then I think it would help to create the sort of atmosphere that was missing at times from the recent UK tournament.

Ultimately we all want to see the best standard of snooker on display, but that requires a set-up that can bring out the best from our top players. A centre piece table set-up as they have at Wimbledon would bring out the best from the best.

regards,
Anglo :D

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby Wildey

Steve Davis point is in Wimbledon Top 16 players have been known to slum it on Court 13 or 17 maybe the Equivalent to the Sports Hall in York.

Re: Flat 128 v's Tiered: What Has Been The Impact?

Postby PLtheRef

Wildey wrote:Steve Davis point is in Wimbledon Top 16 players have been known to slum it on Court 13 or 17 maybe the Equivalent to the Sports Hall in York.


I'm not sure it's exactly an equal comparison because at Wimbledon, no matter which court you are playing on, you are (officiating aids on Centre and No 1 courts exempted) playing in exactly the same conditions climatically whether you are on Centre or Court 18. The same cannot be said for when you are playing in a different environment to the Playing Arena, such as the Sports Hall.