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Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

I am an old timer; learned the game thirty years ago in the golden age of television snooker. There was a certain mystique to the game and it seemed that anyone who took the time to attempt to learn the game did so in an effort to approach it as was considered "proper" at the time. Decades have passed, I am back home in the USA and I play the game regularly with a handful of others who profess their love of the game but none would appear to give what I consider to be proper etiquette a second thought.

Specifically, the Rules of Snooker, Section 3., Rule 19.: "(c) When there is no referee, such as in a social game, the opposing player or side will be regarded as such for the purpose of these Rules." The greatest percentage of a referee's time is, I believe, spent tabulating and announcing the current break score since he has to do something with every single pot. After that, one can argue that the second greatest consumer of a referee's time would be the physical re-spotting of potted colours--pretty much there is some activity after every second pot. Am I the only one who still follows this dinosaur of a rule? Guys in my club usually announce the score, but not always. Sometimes, they might be too busy trotting off to the loo or getting a drink. And spotting balls? Forget it! While I have stated that I prefer the balls to be spotted for me (and I always spot for my opponent except in the rare circumstance that I would then be interfering with his movements), after I pot a colour, I may well have to wait quite some time for a spot and that in turn interferes with the flow of my break. It is a catch 22--I would like my opponent to spot so that I can carry on my naturally quick break pace, so the opponent gradually hoists himself out of his chair, ambles over to retrieve the potted colour from the pocket, then plods around the table to roll it onto its spot, usually making 3 or 4 attempts because it is not exactly on center but keeps falling into the dimple that had been developed into the spot for, oh, maybe the last four months or so. So I most often spot my own to reduce waiting time by about half. I say reduce waiting time by half literally. Figuratively, I would say that waiting for a spot, I could step outside for a quick smoke and that would include running down to the chemist for a pack since I don't smoke. Anytime I bring up the subject of spotting balls, others say that I seem to prefer spotting my own. Yes, that is true, I do prefer spotting my own colours to growing a beard while playing snooker.

In my club, I have had maybe a half dozen short term visitors from England and Ireland and they all displayed the same etiquette that I learned as an integral part of the game. But as for all of the regular club members, Americans and foreign nationals from a variety of other countries, they give me a funny look when I inform that by the rules, as well as by common courtesy, they should be doing these things. Am I the odd duck here? Has the etiquette changed in England in these intervening decades? or do you guys still play the game pretty much the way that I remember?

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Andre147

Good post.

Sory to say but most Americans (not you obviously) just want to rush things up, they don't give a damn about etiquette or anything like that, because that is very clear in the way they approach Pool, which is by far the biggest cue sport in America. America will never understand Snooker and how the game should be played, they just want things to run as fast as they can, so a proper safety battle for instance in Americans view would be like watching paint dry, lol!

It is embeded in their culture, no one can change that, so it is no surprise to me that most members in the club you normaly visit don't even have "time" to respot a ball rofl And let me correct you a little me, you're right in saying that most of the refs job is to anounce the scores and spotting balls, but you're forgetting that a good referee definately needs to know where the player will play his next shot so as to position himself accordingly and then when a player pots a colour for instance, if they are correctly positioned a good referee will never have to walk too much to respot a colour. This to say it doesn't take much time to respot a colour if you are correctly positioned, small things that may appear unimportant but in fact are important for the game to flow.

It is good to hear an American that likes Snooker and plays it, but as I said the American culture just doesn't have the "patience" and right attitude to enjoy and understand a good frame of Snooker, opposite to Pool. The days when Snooker was hugely popular in Canada with great players coming from there are long gone, sadly.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Roland

He's talking about the ref's role if you don't have a ref Andre in which case it's spotting balls, and keeping count of the opponents break. Where they stand is irrelevant because players are players, not referees.

Cliff Thorburn mentioned in the interview I did with him that in Canada it makes him sad and angry that the etiquette of spotting balls for the opponent doesn't go on like it used to when he was starting out.

The simple fact is that you cannot expect to get better or to get to any decent standard or learn from better players if you don't spot the balls and keep score. It is the only way to practice and play effectively.

The player at the table needs to remain focussed on the next shot and it disrupts his rhythm if he has to walk around the table spotting balls between shots as well as keeping count of his own break. For us in the UK, not spotting for your opponent only goes on in novice players territory or when playing a child.

Acesinc I feel so sorry for you for having to put up with people with such a basic disregard for etiquette or knowledge that indeed this is the only way to improve your game. If they do spot the colours, the colour should be on the spot by the time you are ready to play the next shot give or take the distance the acting ref has to walk to retrieve and spot the ball. Any attempt to slow you down by replacing the balls slowly is gamesmanship.

Spotting and counting is relied upon whenever I practice. Not all players call the score out, but they should ALWAYS be counting the break so when you ask them what break you're on they should be able to tell you immediately.

The only problem I have is when the opponent starts creeping towards a pocket they know I'm aiming to pot a colour in when I'm down on the shot.

Note that occasionally it's quicker for you the player to get the colour out of the pocket and pass it to the opponent to spot. But they should always spot it.

If you're having trouble getting others to spot for you, then how about spotting the colours yourself into a more favourable position? Make the pot easier by spotting the ball in a better position. See how long before they want to spot for you. Otherwise refuse to play anyone unless they spot for you as you do for them.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Andre147

lol I know full well Sonny they are playing at club level and that they obviosuly don't have a ref, but my point is by reading his position is that his opponent are always in the wrong position to spot a colour and therefore need to walk much more than they would have to otherwise.

They should the things you mentioned there, but as I said in my post earlier the American culture just doesn't sees things that way, they don't care about etiquette, they just want to pot balls, much like Pool when there is little or no etiquette. But Snooker is not Pool, and requires a discipline to undesrtand the game, and as you and I have said long are the days when Snooker was hugely popular in Canada. It's a sad thing that he can't progress in his game because of this smaller issues, but unfortunately that's the American culture and it will never change in that regard.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

I appreciate your replies, guys. Fortunately, it does sound to me like Snooker still does garner the same reverence amongst its players as I recall then back in its founding culture.

Andre, I love how you capitalize Snooker. I do the same thing when referring to The Game as if it is an entity in and of itself such as when discussing the history of Snooker or the rules of Snooker. Otherwise, I might have a frame of snooker and lay a snooker on my opponent. I agree with your points except that professional level American pool does have a certain degree of discipline to it although it is boring as hell to watch. Those people can take a minute or two to decide what to do and with no real reason as the answer is right before them on the table. Barroom pool of rank amateurs is of course completely bereft of any etiquette but that is to be expected.

Roland, fascinating to hear that you interviewed Cliff and that he specifically mentioned this same trend. I occasionally travel to Toronto and I understand that he is not a stranger at some of the clubs around town and a personable guy besides so perhaps I may meet him one day. As for your suggestions, of course, can't do it. 1) giving myself a generous spot just wouldn't be Snooker, and 2) refusing the competition would leave me a very lonely guy. What is funny is that I have had players in the club from many countries all over the world and this is a common trend among all of them. Except the guys that have come through from England and Ireland. It is as if these other countries have imported the game of snooker but they have not imported The Game of Snooker, if you get my meaning.

A Tale of Two Breaks: take a look at these two clips and the point will be crystal clear. In one, I am the opponent/referee. In the other, I am the striker. You will figure out which is which very quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydCXAcl73CM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA3fiWNg ... e=youtu.be

"The simple fact is that you cannot expect to get better or to get to any decent standard or learn from better players if you don't spot the balls and keep score. It is the only way to practice and play effectively." -- I agree with this statement. In my case, I have no choice but to view the situation as yet another bit of adversity in my path but it is still up to me to not let it stop me from reaching my goal.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Roland

I was joking about spotting the balls wrong, it would be deliberate so the opponent notices to make the point it should be him spotting.

I saw the clips and from them it looks like you're rushing to the pocket to retrieve the ball before he's had a chance. He sees you sprinting to get the ball out so leaves you to it which is what I would do to be fair! Once you've potted the ball, stand up and wait for a couple of seconds which is his subconscious cue to get the ball out!

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

As I said in the original post, this is an evolved action on my part. What you describe is precisely what I used to do. Then, after quite a long while of waiting, then looking at the opponent/ref, then hearing the grunt of, "Oh!" and watching him (not this specific individual, but all of the players in my club in general) plod over to finally retrieve the ball, I decided to take the course of action that you see in the video. As I stated, by spotting on my own, I literally cut the wait time in half. Basically, I have decided that in a match, I am best to treat it as if it is solo practice and mostly spot my own; otherwise, I would need to disrupt my rhythm on every potted colour. My alternative would be to pot a colour, then walk back to my own chair to take a swig of lager while waiting for the colour to be spotted. In that case, I would be drunk before the end of the first frame!

Obviously, I recognize that I am a much quicker tempo player, more of an Alex Higgins/Jimmy White type while nearly every other player in the club is a Peter Ebdon/Rory McLeod but my point here is that the spotter should be catering to the striker's rhythm, not the other way round.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Andre147

If you want to keep track of the frame scores, fouls, etc, because doing it on your own when playing against an opponent is hard enough because you also have to respot the colours etc, there are some very good apps out there for Android for instance that make our job in a snooker frame that much easier.

Just type "Snooker Scoreboard" on GooglePlay for your Android or Iphone (if you have any of those) and there are as I said some pretty good apps, which make track of frame scores a lot more easier. I use them and they are great.

On a side note, of course professional Pool requires some etiquette, but it is nowhere near the level of what we see in Snooker. As I said earlier, this is just a reflection of the American culture. It's a shame most of the members from your club don't understand this etiquette and the way Snooker should be played, because, as you so well put, countries like America have imported the game of snooker, but not THE real game of Snooker, they have just adapted it according to their own culture, which shouldn't be like that, but it is.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

Thanks for the tip, Andre. As I said, I am an old timer and so just a bit "technically challenged" so I'm not sure if I will get much out of the apps but I will definitely take a look.

As I said, I learned the game in its proper original culture in England so I figure that I should carry some credibility in my claims about etiquette within my club. But all the other club members learned the game in the back room of pool halls here in the States or in the culture of whatever country from which they originate. So when I make simple "suggestions" like, "If you have to go to the bathroom during the frame, that is fine of course, but properly, you should ask BEFORE you strike, and not when I am on my turn at the table." And the response I receive is like a puppy dog with his head tilted to the side trying to comprehend what I am saying. I don't know, these things just seem like simple common sense to me. I swear that they all figure me for a real whack job. And my main point with this post is that I wanted to verify that Snooker is still the same as always back where I learned it.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

AC or LT? wrote:I think your being a bit anal with the bathroom thing, no-one should need to ask anyone - have a bit of trust.


You can read me like a book, I am very anal. :spot on: The biggest blockade to improving my game is my own head of course. My point about a "comfort break" is that we can be in a frame, nothing special, safety exchanges, opponent plays to pot a red and misses leaving an open table. Licking my lips, I crouch to take the first red only to hear my opponent say, "I'm gonna hit the john." Talk about overactive bladder syndrome! Didn't have to go a mere thirty seconds ago! And this sort of thing happens with surprising regularity.

But yes, you are correct. These minor annoyances bug me much more than they should.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

AC or LT? wrote:Yeah that kind of thing would enrage me to, have you thought of instigating a gentlemens code whereby a 4 point foul is giving for blatant stupidity?


lol :clap: I like the idea! I don't think it would go over very well though...you have to understand the I am the strange one in the group. I am not talking about gamesmanship here. These are all good guys, far from great players, but good guys, and they do exactly the same types of things between each other and no one would seem to be bothered at all by it except me. So my point in posting this thread is to check if I am really so far out of touch or if I am at least a 2 watt bulb shining brightly in an otherwise terminally darkened room. It just seems that when I learned the game, a certain etiquette was understood and expected and now, among this group from a variety of snooker cultures, that same code of conduct is not even known of, let alone followed.

Thanks to all for your input.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby The Cueist

Hi Acesinc , You are a fluent player and what I seen was
You showing respect when you was being done with a 61 break.
I used to play a guy who used to do the same , It was A OK for me to spot and call out the score on his breaks.

Now when I was potting and making a break he would
Make sly comments to phsche me out and not make anv attempt to spot the balls or count the score.
I knew his crack as I am far from dim in the grey matter.

Thing is this guy was 40 odd and I was 20 odds.
I used to look right through him and he was just another one that never bothered me as I knew he was
An a hole for not possessing any thought for anybody but himself.

Sometimes I would lose 10 frames on the spin but if I beat him 3 or 4 on the trot he would pack his cue up.

I knew who the man was out of the 2 of us .

I learned how to deal with this kind of crack over the years and the best way is to just say " we do our own spots"
Goes down with them like a pint of plutonium and ruins there gamesmanship tactic.

Then when I know they are screwing I start doing roll up snookers even if there is a ball on.

This tends to get them muttering to themselves and they then start leaving you on.

Play them at thier own game they hate it.
As for the " I forgot he score " one that is done purely to rattle thier opponent I always count my score as a force of habit.

I have had them stick thier hand in the pocket and watch them bowl the pott back out the pocket that is when I will just tell them to not bother as they cant obey a few fundamentals .

If someone stabds over the picket I just try harder to make sure I pot the ball on.

It is sad what people do , ut you will never change sone people.
Best to just wind them up back in the nicest possible way.!!!!!!!!! J!!!!!!!

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Roland

Acesinc where is that table? It looks like a garage or an office. Is the camera fixed all the time? Fancy trying to set a score at some of the practice routines in our dedicated section?

This is my interview with Cliff fyi https://www.snookerisland.com/blog/clif ... view-1of3/

And the toilet break thing is out of order, they should wait until it's their turn if they have to go during a frame. That should be pointed out but it sounds like they know you'll just play on and spot your own balls because you've given the impression you're happy to do so.

Are you the best player in your club? Are you the only one who takes it seriously? And do your opponents expect you to spot for them? What happens with the slower players like the guy in the first clip if you don't spot the balls for them? Do they complain?

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Sickpotter

IMO overall etiquette has declined in Snooker, much of it driven by the desire of some fans to turn Snooker venues into party/darts atmospheres. Some driven by pool halls inability to subsist on table fees alone.

Pool halls used to be so quiet you could hear a pin drop, now they blast dance music. Who the hell is dancing while playing pool/snooker?

Many halls used to be alcohol free.....good for learning the game but bad for pool hall revenue, they can't survive on table fees alone any more.

I find the care of halls has seriously dropped in the last decade. Staff rarely brush tables anymore, don't take issue with people sitting on tables, don't maintain the equipment, etc.

When the club owners don't respect their equipment how can they expect the players to? Owners should be educating players on the proper behaviour, that's rarely done nowadays.

I always hated spotting my opponents balls but I did it. I consider it part of player development and use it as a motivator. I view spotting my opponents balls as the price I pay for missing. Don't like spotting balls? Don't miss. ;-)

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

Roland wrote:Acesinc where is that table? It looks like a garage or an office. Is the camera fixed all the time? Fancy trying to set a score at some of the practice routines in our dedicated section?

This is my interview with Cliff fyi https://www.snookerisland.com/blog/clif ... view-1of3/

And the toilet break thing is out of order, they should wait until it's their turn if they have to go during a frame. That should be pointed out but it sounds like they know you'll just play on and spot your own balls because you've given the impression you're happy to do so.

Are you the best player in your club? Are you the only one who takes it seriously? And do your opponents expect you to spot for them? What happens with the slower players like the guy in the first clip if you don't spot the balls for them? Do they complain?


Whew! A lotta questions!
My story quickly; some you have already gathered, some new...
I am born and bred in the USA, a damned Yankee all the way. I learnt of Snooker for the first time in my life when I was 19 years old in Harrogate, North Yorkshire. Three years of multiple weekly sessions before going back home and I KNEW that I would have to own my own table. A couple years later, bought a house with a big basement and acquired a reasonably good table. Game is not popular here so I literally could not find a soul to join me in the enjoyment of the occasional frame so after many years of solo practice, table fell into disuse. Time goes on, got old, had babies, started a company to keep the bellies full and pay the mortgage.
The table is in my company warehouse now, moved in there about four years ago, and it is large enough that I had space for the table (made my wife happy to finally "get that damned thing outta the house!"). This means that I have somewhat of an impromptu "Snooker Club" much like a Workingman's Club as I occasionally visited in England. About a dozen members, mostly American and Indian. One Canadian (ran the 61 in the video) and he is really the only other one who understands what I am saying about the etiquette required in Snooker because he grew up with it. The rest of them think I am just goofy and making these things up in my own mind because that is the way I would like for it to be, not because that is the way that it is. So I have tried to teach a bit about the Culture of Snooker (a la the Thorburn interview) but I get nowhere. Me and the Canadian, that is it. To announce going to the loo as your opponent steps to the table is not sharking, not gaming, it just honestly does not occur to them that it is poor etiquette. And I have talked until I'm blue in the face but I have just given up because I am quite obviously the crackpot here. Me and the Canadian. And the English and the Irish visitors that I have had passing through for a visit. No one else can even comprehend the Culture of Snooker that you guys have the good fortune to just be able to take for granted. That and the fact that you can probably step out the door of your flat and you probably have three different places in a fifteen minute walk where you can go have a frame of snooker. Throw a dart at a map of the USA and chances are, wherever it hits, from there you probably could not find a snooker table within a three hour car ride. Pickings are slim here.

So (other than private tables in the homes of a few,) mine is probably the best "snooker atmosphere" that you will find between Toronto and Houston.

The interview with Cliff is great. I always admired his integrity, though I admit that The Grinder was not my favorite to watch. Thorburn's Snooker Skills was the first book that I read dedicated to Snooker. Still crack it open on occasion but currently, Joe Davis' books are my bibles.

Am I the best? Loaded question...some days yes, most days no. You also need to understand that as it is my place, I want dollar bills to end up in my till. These guys have no other place to go and some travel a long way to get here, up to two hours each way in one case. So most guys only show up occasionally, maybe half dozen times in a year. There are only a few who will make it in on a weekly or maybe bi-weekly basis. Most of them watch the snooker on the internet and they try to emulate what they see. Unfortunately, that means SAFETY and when players are low caliber, safety of course is pretty much a waste of time. Most of the players simply don't understand that when the blue, pink, and black are tied up on the cushions, then playing off the pack and trying to snuggle up to the yellow or brown simply is not a "great shot"; in fact, it is quite an ignorant shot. But they see Ronnie run the white back behind the baulk so then THAT must be the correct shot in all circumstances where a clear pot is not on. And who am I to try to be teaching anyone anything about Snooker? If I am so good, then how come I am not running centuries every time I step up to the table? So..........I spend most of my match time practicing my cannons, making sure that I am feeling the angles correctly to nudge the colours off the cushions. It is nearly a neverending job so I really don't concern myself with the score too much. I want the club members to enjoy their snooker experience (and so keep coming back) and if that means that they can frequently take a red, then pot that black which is so conveniently near the corner pocket (after having been nudged there), then so be it. On average, I would say in a session of ten frames I will take maybe two or three twenty breaks, and sometimes a thirty as well. Overall, there are very few twenties made in the club. It's tough to get a good break when the table is constantly so ugly.

I do have aspirations for the US Snooker Nationals. There are only a few dozen guys that go to it. I have been twice, just a steadfast journeyman at the moment, right in the middle of the pack both times. One other member of my club has also been several times, but at best, he only comes into the club about every two or three months. He's a journeyman as well, has some talent but it doesn't shine when one plays so rarely. I truly wish that I could have a regular playing partner who actually understands the game as that is what I need in order to advance my game. At the moment though, that is just a pipedream.

Yes, the camera is a permanent set up so I can capture the occasional good break. Again, it makes the players feel good about their game and keep coming back. Hopefully, that helps explain my rather unique condition...

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Roland

I laughed out loud when you said about the roll ups from the novices and that they think it's a good shot because they've seen Ronnie do it without assessing the table. It's also an 8 ball pool shot which is probably a factor too but anyway I see your predicament and it's why I can never live in USA!

When you're playing these people who knock the colours safe and can't make 20 breaks, just bust the pack open from the start and spread the reds out. That's the only way to play them and give yourself a chance of keeping the table relatively tidy throughout the frame i.e. colours on spots. It's bad because it won't help your development as a tactical player, but on that score it sounds like you're pretty screwed anyway with the level of opponent available. In order to develop a decent safety game, you have to learn about punishment from mistakes by better opponents. It's the only way to improve from regular to decent standard.

As I mentioned before I know the area of England you were stationed at and the Menwith Hill site because I've lived here most of my life so I've probably played in the same working mens clubs as you (Bilton, Starbeck, High Harrogate etc). When were you there?

I meant practice routines to get a score on camera: viewforum.php?f=566

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

I think Andre is correct, it is a clash of two cultures and neither understands the other at all. I am in such a position that I have lived both cultures, I prefer proper British snooker etiquette and I want to pass that on to my club members, but the American mentality for this sort of thing has no capacity to understand no matter how much explaining is done. And that is the part that you are not understanding. The loo for instance....you think that all I have to do is explain that it is poor etiquette to leave when your opponent is at the table, just wait until it is your turn, then go take care of your business. Problem solved. That is what you are not getting here. I have patiently explained that numerous times to numerous people and the response I have always gotten is "You're nuts. I have to go to the john, I'm gonna go to the john. Just keep shootin'". And I have to just shake my head and smile. And wait. No, I don't play my shot, that would be poor etiquette on my part. There are many things that I will not tolerate...Americans want to leave cubes of chalk everywhere around the table. Indians, Pakis, and Middle Easterns all believe that they are free to lean on the table, even put a hand on the cloth while the opponent is stroking his shot. That has to come to an end quickly. But there are three things that I simply cannot stamp out: 1) the "comfort break" which includes the loo, getting drinks out of the fridge, lighting cigarettes, and cleaning ashtrays by banging them around against the trash can. All while a player is crouching, feathering, and/or stroking. 2) Spotting - yes, they will spot.......................eventually. But when I explain that the spotter should be catering to the striker's cadence, not the other way round, it falls on deaf ears. So I mostly take care of my own. You mentioned Jim (the Canadian) as being slow. He is not in comparison to the rest, pretty average. 30 to 40 seconds is common shot interval for most in my club (not me, as you saw and a couple are quicker to be fair). But Jim is a good spotter, he always takes care of me because he "gets it". and 3) Movement in line of sight--absolutely amazing how many cigs must be puffed, and drinks must be drunk, and noses must be scratched at the exact instant of the striker's final back stroke. I am no statistician, but the odds against it must be phenomenal!

You mentioned slow play? Here is one that you most likely will not believe, but I swear to God that what I write is true. I broke off a frame, just standard, freed a few reds, cue ball glued to baulk cushion. Not a snooker.....if I were on the next shot, I would have taken 2 seconds to analyze it, another 3 to 5 seconds to play a standard safety back to baulk. My opponent of the frame wishes to emulate a professional in every possible sense. I should mention that I took the breakoff and as I sat down, I glanced at the clock (with a second hand) to check the time. My opponent walked up and down the table about four or five times, placed his cue at some awkward angles that I could not figure what in the hell that was, took very serious close looks at a number of reds, at some point said, "Nice break.....", then, after approximately one minute forty five seconds elapsed, played exactly the same safety that everyone else would have played within ten seconds. It's true, 1:45 for the second shot of the frame. What I think you are failing to grasp is that many players over here have absolutely no perspective about right and wrong shots in given situations because they have no viable frame of reference. All they know comes from two sources: 1) watching pros on the internet stream, and 2) playing against other knuckleheads like themselves who only get their information from watching pros on the internet stream. Again, if I try to inject a little realism into the situation, it falls on deaf ears because, hey, what do I know, have I ever run a century? So this guy takes 1:45 on the second shot of the frame because he thinks that is what Ronnie would do in a frame against Robbo. And he might be right about that. But I honestly can't remember the last time that Robbo stopped in here for the purpose of running a clearance from the third shot of a frame....it has definitely been a while now. As for the actual opponent....me....I don't think a clearance was in the making anytime soon. But again, all I can do is shake my head and smile. No perspective.

You mentioned a few things about scattering the reds and trying to keep tidy....yes, I have tried a variety of things to try to see what is beneficial. When it was important to me to actually win frames, I absolutely fell in with the tit for tat safeties. Played in many frames that lasted over an hour and seriously wanted to gnaw my own arm off. Not enjoyable at all. Now it is more important for me to do something useful to improve my own game while the opponent considers it a match. So that is how I play my own little game of English Billiards within the game of Snooker. I don't really worry about safety, (hey, what will he run--1? maybe 8? Terrifying!) instead, I will often play what appears to be standard back to baulk safety but I am really trying to play the cannon into whatever colour is tied up on Black or Black Side cushions. Don't get me wrong...when I get an opening for a break I take it. Practicing the cannons has improved my cue ball control and my opponent is none the wiser. Take a look at my 55 run again; cue ball is pretty well on a string. If you look at Jim's again, he tends to overrun position with the cue ball. He doesn't get in on the table much, maybe once a month, sometimes less. But he plays American pool like three or four days a week. Balls are 2-1/4" diameter and heavy and the cues are like logs with a tip on the slightly more narrow end. Amazing that he gets the cue ball even close to where he wants it because of his greater experience with the heavy equipment. He's an intelligent player.

Besides trying to improve my game by whatever means necessary during these matches, the other thing I am trying to do is allow these guys to enjoy the snooker all the while trying to wean them into "proper" snooker because, as I have been rambling on about, they really just don't get it yet, though they think they do. My own personal goal which I haven't told any of my club members (hopefully, they don't read your forum, no offence, of course) is to make it to Semi Finals at the US Nationals within the next three years. It will be tough without an actual playing partner to provide real match experience. That may sound like a lofty goal, but you may or may not realize that the US National Champion is probably no better a snooker player than one of the better guys in your county. Read that close...I said your COUNTY. Our bar is just not set that high yet. So I think its an achievable goal. And if I can pull it off then maybe, just maybe, I will finally have some credibility and these guys may finally start to listen.

And thanks to you guys who have read my ramblings. It is good to share with some folks who seem to have some credible snooker knowledge.

About filming the practice routines, yes, I may do that one day, but business is good so I am not getting much snooker time in lately, 4 or 5 hours a week total, maybe an hour of solo. So it may be quite some time before I post anything. I've tried the Christmas Tree and liked it. I usually do various forms of line up and reds only for off spot break building.
Last edited by acesinc on 18 Nov 2014, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

I know above is a long read already, but something that I should add to it...

I want to be clear that these are good guys, its not gamesmanship just a different cultural influence, and they are not bad players at all...they are just doing their best with what little resources we have over here. I state freely that I am one of the worst actual potters in the club. What I mean by that is that if you place the white anywhere you want and place another ball anywhere in a pottable position, I am the one that will miss the actual shot most often. I still do well because I understand the white and pot my colours. I can't tell you how many breaks of one I am witness to. You had mentioned about keeping the frame tidy.....I am detail oriented, and as stated earlier, anal, so a point to be made regarding this is that in any given frame, I will generally pot five, maybe six reds. Yet, by the scoreboard, I win about half the frames. It's a simple math equation of my five reds being worth about 30 points versus my opponents 10 reds being worth about 30 points, and the occasional odd penalty points, so the frame will come down the colours in any case. And the actual "win" will tip either direction, because again, I am probably a worse potter than my opponent and each colour is liable to be on just about any geometrical point on the table by the end game so I am not likely to run them out even with the better positional skills. That is the big reason that I cannot keep a frame tidy no matter what because in any given frame I am only getting five or six opportunities to get a ball back on spot and believe me, they don't stay there very long. I had said earlier, it is tough to consistently run any sort of breaks when the table is constantly ugly. Undoubtedly, no one else in the place would realize this distribution of reds because, hey, who actually regularly counts up the reds he pots in any given frame? The anal guy, that's who.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Dan-cat

This has been a great read. Yeah, we spot the balls for the other player. Of course we do! :) And shout out the break score. If you need the toilet then you wait till it's your turn. We would never keep shooting while one of you is away at the bar / toilet, not because we are worried about cheating, it's in case you pull off a killer shot you want your opponent to see it!

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby The Cueist

I wouldnt take a blind bit of notice of slow play .
Gives me more time to get determined to keep him
Off the table when I get in .

In my experience people do no enjoyt being beaten
And will resort to all knids of tactics to take your mind off what you are doing .

I transcend this behaviour as i have learned to deal with it and it gets up their noses more than mine.

I call it gamesmanship to just tidy it up.
I am well aware that some players have a slow way around the table.
Some whack the ball and knock reds in regularly by way of flukes.

I veiw snooker as a game I enjoy and I have learned to try and just play the table , It is just easier.

I have found also that if you play well against some people tbey almost get irate about it.

I can only assume they have the green eyed monster ofenvy in their rationale they attatch to the ehaviour I have witnessed more times than I can care to remember.

At the same time I play opponents who accepts their wins and losses like grown men .

In this day and age there is not many of them to the 1lb. im afraid .

Mid nineties is when the decline in etiquette became apparent.

Eg .played a league match where it was stipulated no jeans or trainers permitted to be worn in their club.
We all turned up in trousers and they turned up, Several of them in jeans and trainers.

Again people trying to play games , Backfired as we smashed them at singles and doubles.

In a league match I was reffing the opponent of my team player called a foul and told me that the white was touching ball and that his oponent had moved the object ball the white was touching as he never played away from it straight to top cushion but had not observed the touching ball rule by coming off the reds in the pack the white was touching at right hand from baulk

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby The Cueist

Continued.
Top side cushion.
This came just after I had won my two frames where the guy I played claimed I had fouled a green I had potted from 11 foot away.
He said I had touched the white before I struck the shot.
Ie whilst I was feathering the white.
I said I think not mate and I asked the guy who was reffing did he see anything and he replied no.

As I am a very fair person I told our ref to give him the four points.

He told me could I play the shot again obviously hopingbi would miss.

I looked at our ref who was protesting and quite rightly so at the outrageous cheek of all this.

I insisted give him what he wants and I got down and smashed it in the pocket whereafter I cleared the table.

The guy apologised afterwards several times .

Pool matches.
I have beat a guy to win the league and the guy virtually wanted to beat me up.

That was circa 1992.

A lot of people are just bad losers let alone nave any etiquette

What I post is always reality not cyber bull.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby acesinc

Dan-cat wrote:Acesinc you play really well. As a fellow Harrogate Hammerain alumni I'm letting the side down! Time to brush up


Thanks Dan-cat, but I'm sure you do fine and make us proud. My big improvements have just come in the last two years...dismantled everything from the ground up and re-built my whole approach to the game. I'm hitting half century about every three months now even in such conditions. With a proper playing partner, feeding each other encouragement and playing the game properly, I think I could hit half century every week. I think I will hit 75 but it won't be for a year or two and who knows? Maybe a century one day. Best in lineup now is 93 so its out there.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Dan-cat

The Cueist wrote:WTF are you on about you fool ?
Lost on me


Hello Mr Cueist, was it my post you didn't understand?

ps. talking of bad losers, when I was 17 my mate and I won the pool doubles tournament in our local pub the Royal Oak. As I potted the final black, the two finalists we beat, guys in their 30s from the pub's A Team grabbed their cues and stormed out of the pub leaving us laughing into our pints.

On the flip of this, my mate beat me in the final of the singles. I was so upset with myself (I had a great chance to win) I left the pub and smashed my 3 piece Riley cue on the road outside. I actually tried to glue it back together and continued playing with it, albeit slightly shorter, for a few weeks. Silly billy.
Last edited by Dan-cat on 19 Nov 2014, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Dan-cat

acesinc wrote:
Thanks Dan-cat, but I'm sure you do fine and make us proud. My big improvements have just come in the last two years...dismantled everything from the ground up and re-built my whole approach to the game. I'm hitting half century about every three months now even in such conditions. With a proper playing partner, feeding each other encouragement and playing the game properly, I think I could hit half century every week. I think I will hit 75 but it won't be for a year or two and who knows? Maybe a century one day. Best in lineup now is 93 so its out there.


93 - that's pretty amazing!! You make the game look easy in that clip, and it looks like you could have made more if not for the long interruption. I'd be fascinated to hear how and what you did to rebuild your game. I've always been able to pot them off the lamp shades. I sometimes make ridiculous shots. But I always break down around the 20 mark, and yet I have a good understanding of positional play and am able to execute screw and shots with side etc. I have a good stance and cue action but think I need to work on my pre-shot drill. I'm wildly inconsistent. Uh oh, I've gone off topic...

Re: Is proper etiquette a thing of the past?

Postby Andre147

Dan-cat wrote:
The Cueist wrote:WTF are you on about you fool ?
Lost on me


Hello Mr Cueist, was it my post you didn't understand?

ps. talking of bad losers, when I was 17 my mate and I won the pool doubles tournament in our local pub the Royal Oak. As I potted the final black, the two finalists we beat, guys in their 30s from the pub's A Team grabbed their cues and stormed out of the pub leaving us laughing into our pints.

On the flip of this, my mate beat me in the final of the singles. I was so upset with myself (I had a great chance to win) I left the pub and smashed my 3 piece Riley cue on the road outside. I actually tried to glue it back together and continued playing with it, albeit slightly shorter, for a few weeks. Silly billy.


Ha just ignore him, he always loves to insult people when someone disagrees with him

pmsl