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Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby SnookerFan

Ronnie has always had a special talent for playing snooker. Even people who aren't fans of his will acknowledge that. So it's hard to see him declining in the same way John Higgins as. Top of the world one minute, struggling to get a win the next.

Ronnie, I could see being one of those players that could routinely be winning tournaments well into their 40s or 50s should he desire it. He just has a more supreme natural talent than most other players.

However, at this year's Crucible he played poorly the entire tournament. He managed to get to the final through a combination of gritting it out, and his opponent being somewhat intimidated by him. By his standards, he was poor. Despite playing blindingly well at The Masters in January.

I didn't see his match against Mark Williams earlier this week, but apparently he went between century making form, to not being able to pot a ball, to back again.

Is the unthinkable happening? Is it the start of a Ronnie decline? Will age bring a decline in Ronnie's form, or will age not decline him as much as some players? Will his talent mean he can play at a top level for years to come, or in a few years will it all be gone? Is it just a few rare blips of form from a great player, or the early signs of age beginning to creep in?

Discuss.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Sickpotter

Age will be a factor for all players but somewhat less for a naturally talented player so we see them stick around longer.

No matter how talented one is physical degradation is inevitable, in the eyes particularly.

Ronnies' vast experience will keep him around for a while but eventually the long potting will go and Ronnie will have to rely on players giving him the openings rather than him creating them with a tremendous long pot.

He'll remain capable of winning a given match and maybe win the odd event like Davis has but like Davis he'll rely much more on other players making the mistakes rather than his own talent. When that fully sets in he'll fall down the rankings like all the other greats have.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Wildey

When Ronnie lost to Selby in the World Championship it knocked him for six.

the Air of invincibility Ronnie had last season in particular has gone.

Thats not to say he wont get it back but the longer he goes without a title the harder it will be at this stage of his career.

Champion of Champions has become a pivotal moment.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Andre147

If Ronnie truly wants to, like you said SF he can still be winning titles well into his 40s because his natural talent allows him so.

One of the first aspects that starts to fall apart when you start reaching 40 is your long potting. Amusingly, Ronnie between 2006-2011, apart from some exceptions, lost his long potting ability and he wasn't confident at all on long pots. He regained that back in 2012 and that Higginson match at the German Masters wheh he was 4 nil down changed evrything, I would go as far as to say that had he lost that match he may not have won 2 consecutive World Titles, that match changed everything.

But on the matter at hand, Ronnie is far from finished, and it isn't just because Ronnie lost a match against Williams from 3 nil up that he suddently starts to decline as some (cough cough AC or LT) have suggested <doh> That is just pure nonsense, those were the very same people that said Ronnie was finished in 2011 and what did he do.... he shut them well up and made them eat their own deluded words. :wave:

I am not naive though and say age isn't a factor, of course it is and decline happens to everyone, but like I said Ronnie's natural ability plus winning matches without losing much mental energy has helped Ronnie over the years in wining titles.

His long potting may start to decline in the next couple of years, but his breakbuilding, which is by far his greatest strengh given he's the best breakbuilder ever, won't fade away that easily, he'll break Hendry's record of tons this season, and I think he can still win one more World Title for instance and hopefully another Masters and UK Titles.

He now only competes when he truly wants to, in his mind he isn't "forced" to compete so he gives it 100% everytime he goes out there, if he loses then so be it, like in this match against Williams. He played poorly most of the match, but it wasn't that kind of silly-fast-don't care about losing performance. Everyone has a bad day at the office, and yesterday it was his.

It's nothing new, every year when Ronnie loses an important match the haters come out in force saying he's finished rofl I've heard that rubbish talk since I started watching Snooker... Those were also the very same who for instance said it was a change of the guard when he lost to Judd 6-2 at the Masters 2012... :chuckle:

Like I said, decline will inevitably happen, but Ronnie will still be around winning a few more titles along the way. And also, like SO said yesterday, he long ago doesn't have anything else to prove to anyone, he defended his World Crown in 2013 having a year out, won more titles, and from where he was in 2011 to where he is now everything is just a bonus really, I don't care if Ronnie retired tomorrow, he doesnt have anything else to prove, but since he's still around playing long may he continue to win a few more titles and gives us some of his magic Snooker.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Wildey

Decline comes gradual.

Mark Williams did not wake up at the start of 2003/2004 season thinking that was my last world title at the age of 28 but over the last 10 years he has lost that consistency he had.

Ronnie has now gone 8 months without winning anything OK he has played only 5 events in that time. but it starts like that then 8 months become a year then 2 years etc etc..

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Andre147

Ronnie has gone between times whe he didn't win anything for quite a period of time, I remember 2005 Irish Masters, then he only won another title at the UK Champs in 2007. the same for the 2009 Shanghai Masters, he only another another title in the 2012 German Masters! he went 3 years without a title there!

I know his age isn't the same now as it was back then, but even if he goes out first round at the CoC against Bingo it's far far from to say he's in decline. Ronnie often loves to shut the critics up and win a title when some don't expect him to. So a few tournaments without a title doesnt worry me much because we've all seen it before.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Andre147

AC or LT? wrote:Yes, he is. He's about to fall of the proverbial cliff in his game. It's is mental demons he needs to keep in check.


Huh huh... I'll come back to you when he wins another title, then you can talk about the mental demons again.. same old talk over and over and over again everytime he loses an important match :zzz:

Just to remind you you're also the one who claims Ronnie can't make 20 more tons this season and break Hendry's record... he did 53 last season alone in case you hadn't noticed, entering half the tournaments Robbo did for instance.

Christ your predictions are even worst than SnookerFan around here, and that takes some beating <laugh>

But if you blindly believe that who I am to contradict you :chuckle:
Last edited by Andre147 on 31 Oct 2014, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Wildey

Andre147 wrote:
AC or LT? wrote:Yes, he is. He's about to fall of the proverbial cliff in his game. It's is mental demons he needs to keep in check.


Huh huh... I'll come back to you when he wins another title, then you can talk about the mental demons again.. same old talk over and over and over again everytime he loses an important match :zzz:

its too early to write him off.

but he was 3-0 up on Mark Williams last time Mark beat him was in 2002 (apart from 1 CL Match)

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby The Cueist

As it goes Ronnie wonthe masters and the welsh with a 147 to wrap up the title.
He lost a world final to player who got the run of the ball and took every chance given to him.
I suspect ronnie was psychologically perturbed at not killing a very under performing selby off in that final.
Chalk and cheese they are as players.

Ronnie will mend , He didnt look very up for the mjw match in my opinion.
Was not surprised in the least at the final score line.

Ron will be back I know he will.
You mark my words

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Andre147

The Cueist wrote:As it goes Ronnie wonthe masters and the welsh with a 147 to wrap up the title.
He lost a world final to player who got the run of the ball and took every chance given to him.
I suspect ronnie was psychologically perturbed at not killing a very under performing selby off in that final.
Chalk and cheese they are as players.

Ronnie will mend , He didnt look very up for the mjw match in my opinion.
Was not surprised in the least at the final score line.

Ron will be back I know he will.
You mark my words


Exactly The Cueist, Ronnie will bounce back from this and win a few more titles... The talk is always the same.. when Ronnie loses a few important matches in consecutive tournaments they all come out in force saying he's finished and all that... I've heard this nonsense since 2006 and everytime Ronnie shut their mouths up and won another title. He isn't getting any younger, but to say he's finished just because he lost against Williams doesn't make any sense.

Besides, Ronnie does love when people write him off, so in a way the haters are actually helping him to perform better. :-D

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby The Cueist

Andre I feel we are seasoned snooker fans to know when players are having off days.
There is a flaw in ronnies game and it is missing blacks off the spot when in the balls.
He knows he needs to address this.
I am not sure if it is an anxious thing that is creeping into his game or he is looking to many shots in front onthe break building side.
As you rightly say , The haters will inspire him to come back brighter.
Sometimes I think the atmosphere gets to ronnie.
He is very highly strung as a humanbeing at the best of times.
To be fair mjw didnt look comfy all match

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby SnookerFan

Andre147 wrote:
Exactly The Cueist, Ronnie will bounce back from this and win a few more titles... The talk is always the same.. when Ronnie loses a few important matches in consecutive tournaments they all come out in force saying he's finished and all that... I've heard this nonsense since 2006 and everytime Ronnie shut their mouths up and won another title. He isn't getting any younger, but to say he's finished just because he lost against Williams doesn't make any sense.

Besides, Ronnie does love when people write him off, so in a way the haters are actually helping him to perform better. :-D


He's clearly not finished. As you say, players who are finished don't win The Masters and The Welsh Open, and get to the Crucible final.

But he played excellently in January and February, and pretty mediocre in Sheffield. I didn't see his match against Williams, but a lot of people were commenting at how terrible he was. Somebody even said he looked like a player with one arm.

I rate Ronnie's mental toughness a lot better than it was even a couple of years ago, so was just wondering how people thought. A lot of times he lost previously, he wasn't anything like finished. It was his desire to play the games that often was over.

I just wondered if his swings between excellent and awful are the sign of anything different this time. Now he can pick and chose what events he enters, he tends to try harder when he does turn up.

That was the difference that made me curious.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby mantorok

You're making this thread off the back of a performance in China...?

Holla at me when the season over, then we'll talk, truth is we don't know what shape he's in until we see him in some more majors, or even the World's for that matter.

Don't base assumptions on China, we all know how he does in China.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby mantorok

SnookerFan wrote:Somebody even said he looked like a player with one arm.


:-D

But he was, he even went like a man with no arms at one stage, hell I could've beaten him in some of those frames. He did appear very rusty, but that's expected given the gaps in matches.

I think the CoC could be telling this week.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby TheRocket

Wildey wrote:When Ronnie lost to Selby in the World Championship it knocked him for six.

the Air of invincibility Ronnie had last season in particular has gone.

Thats not to say he wont get it back but the longer he goes without a title the harder it will be at this stage of his career.

Champion of Champions has become a pivotal moment.


Not COC but the UK will be very important for him this year. Not because the UK is supposed to be the second most important tournament in Snooker but we also know that he won this title the last time in 2007 and apart from 2009 he really played bad here. So he has definitely something to prove. Time to make it 5 and equal the number of UK Wins with the World and Masters ones.

So the UK will really show in my eyes, in which state Ronnie currently is.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Andre147

SnookerFan wrote:
Andre147 wrote:
He's clearly not finished. As you say, players who are finished don't win The Masters and The Welsh Open, and get to the Crucible final.

But he played excellently in January and February, and pretty mediocre in Sheffield. I didn't see his match against Williams, but a lot of people were commenting at how terrible he was. Somebody even said he looked like a player with one arm.

I rate Ronnie's mental toughness a lot better than it was even a couple of years ago, so was just wondering how people thought. A lot of times he lost previously, he wasn't anything like finished. It was his desire to play the games that often was over.

I just wondered if his swings between excellent and awful are the sign of anything different this time. Now he can pick and chose what events he enters, he tends to try harder when he does turn up.

That was the difference that made me curious.


You raise a good point there, maybe we'll more often see flashes of brilliant and then can't pot a ball performances... but it's nothing new really, in the past we have seen that too.

As mantorok said, saying Ronnie is finished on the back of a poor China performance is silly really.

I wouldn't say the CoC is decisive as he has one of the toughest draws he could have got in Bingo, but the UK Champs and the Masters will be decisive.

He'll win again I'm sure, so I'm not too worried.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Andre147

TheRocket wrote:
Wildey wrote:When Ronnie lost to Selby in the World Championship it knocked him for six.

the Air of invincibility Ronnie had last season in particular has gone.

Thats not to say he wont get it back but the longer he goes without a title the harder it will be at this stage of his career.

Champion of Champions has become a pivotal moment.


Not COC but the UK will be very important for him this year. Not because the UK is supposed to be the second most important tournament in Snooker but we also know that he won this title the last time in 2007 and apart from 2009 he really played bad here. So he has definitely something to prove. Time to make it 5 and equal the number of UK Wins with the World and Masters ones.

So the UK will really show in my eyes, in which state Ronnie currently is.


That's what I've been saying lately, how I would love if he won another UK Title, he hasn't done himself justice there since 2007 and 2009. He always seems very flat and tired to me when the UK Champs is around, he definately needs to come there fresher, and this year may prove decisive.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby SnookerFan

mantorok wrote:You're making this thread off the back of a performance in China...?

Holla at me when the season over, then we'll talk, truth is we don't know what shape he's in until we see him in some more majors, or even the World's for that matter.

Don't base assumptions on China, we all know how he does in China.


Okay. I'll stop talking about snooker until the end of the season then.... rofl

Just kidding. What I was more driving at is, with someone that possesses Ronnie's natural ability will it matter if he declines. Will his decline matter as much as other players? Will he decline as quickly as John Higgins?

Not dissing Ronnie for having poor form in one tournament.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby mantorok

SnookerFan wrote:
mantorok wrote:You're making this thread off the back of a performance in China...?

Holla at me when the season over, then we'll talk, truth is we don't know what shape he's in until we see him in some more majors, or even the World's for that matter.

Don't base assumptions on China, we all know how he does in China.


Okay. I'll stop talking about snooker until the end of the season then.... rofl

Just kidding. What I was more driving at is, with someone that possesses Ronnie's natural ability will it matter if he declines. Will his decline matter as much as other players? Will he decline as quickly as John Higgins?

Not dissing Ronnie for having poor form in one tournament.


Yeah I guess I latched on to your comment about his match with MJW.

To be fair you could argue his game was in decline before he won his 4th world title, but he found a way to circumvent it through mental stamina, the problem he might have now is that if his concentration goes he will start missing in the balls more, and opponents are likely to feed off that, altering the perception of this so-called "fear" factor.

I think he has total control of how much his game declines, we know the ability is still there, it's the desire that counts with Ronnie. But who knows how the WC final loss will affect him and his confidence, to squander a 10-5 lead in a final that he should've won will take a while to get over, and could well be the straw to break the camels back.

I'm very interested to see how this season pans out for him, because I think it could be telling, he had clear desires to dominate last season, would be really interesting to see what he feels like this year.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Skullman

Interesting he's playing more this year. Last year you got the impression that Ronnie felt he could just turn and win whatever he entered, but apparently he feels some more match practice this year.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Andre147

mantorok wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
mantorok wrote:
Yeah I guess I latched on to your comment about his match with MJW.

To be fair you could argue his game was in decline before he won his 4th world title, but he found a way to circumvent it through mental stamina, the problem he might have now is that if his concentration goes he will start missing in the balls more, and opponents are likely to feed off that, altering the perception of this so-called "fear" factor.

I think he has total control of how much his game declines, we know the ability is still there, it's the desire that counts with Ronnie. But who knows how the WC final loss will affect him and his confidence, to squander a 10-5 lead in a final that he should've won will take a while to get over, and could well be the straw to break the camels back.

I'm very interested to see how this season pans out for him, because I think it could be telling, he had clear desires to dominate last season, would be really interesting to see what he feels like this year.


Good post, couldn't agree more with you. <ok>

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby mantorok

Skullman wrote:Interesting he's playing more this year. Last year you got the impression that Ronnie felt he could just turn and win whatever he entered, but apparently he feels some more match practice this year.


When he reached the world final this year he was arguably playing rubbish and yet he still managed to almost win it, now we know that must've hurt, but he could've looked at it 2-ways:

    1. I just lost a world final because my opponent beat me
    2. I just lost a world final because I didn't play well enough when it mattered

The former is a cop-out imo and is not very constructive, from what your saying it could be that he perceived the outcome to be a result of no. 2 and feels he should get more practice in the field this time around.

This is interesting because, if our interpretation of him entering more events is true, then it could be that he sees the loss caused by no.2 and wants to rectify it - that would indicate he has his head screwed on still.

Of course I could be completely wrong, but nevertheless it's fascinating as always, isn't it?

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Clara8633

Skullman wrote:Interesting he's playing more this year. Last year you got the impression that Ronnie felt he could just turn and win whatever he entered, but apparently he feels some more match practice this year.


Maybe it's partly due to his recent attempt to get over his reluctance in flying lol.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Wildey

mantorok wrote:
Skullman wrote:Interesting he's playing more this year. Last year you got the impression that Ronnie felt he could just turn and win whatever he entered, but apparently he feels some more match practice this year.


When he reached the world final this year he was arguably playing rubbish and yet he still managed to almost win it, now we know that must've hurt, but he could've looked at it 2-ways:


Thats the difference i feel this season Ronnie has to work harder to win matches last season players were beaten before he took out his cue at times.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby SnookerFan

Wildey wrote:
Thats the difference i feel this season Ronnie has to work harder to win matches last season players were beaten before he took out his cue at times.


That's why I was glad he played Selby in The Crucible final. Even if Ronnie had won, Selby would make him earn it.

I think winning The Crucible the year before, after a year out, gave him an aura that he carried over to The Crucible this year. It was embarrassing the amount of times top notch players ballsed up relatively straight forward shots against Ronnie in the World Championships.

No matter what the result of the final, Selby wasn't going to lie down just because he was playing Ronnie.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby Wildey

especially Murphy

13-3 was the most flattering scoreline ive ever seen with the amount of chances Ronnie gave him.

Re: Is Ronnie losing consistency? Will it matter?

Postby mantorok

Wildey wrote:
mantorok wrote:
Skullman wrote:Interesting he's playing more this year. Last year you got the impression that Ronnie felt he could just turn and win whatever he entered, but apparently he feels some more match practice this year.


When he reached the world final this year he was arguably playing rubbish and yet he still managed to almost win it, now we know that must've hurt, but he could've looked at it 2-ways:


Thats the difference i feel this season Ronnie has to work harder to win matches last season players were beaten before he took out his cue at times.


Yep, and when they weren't afraid (Perry) they gave him great competition. Hawkins and Murphy were just abysmal, the only time I ever thought Ron had a chance was at 10-5 up, but once it was 10-7 overnight the writing was well and truly on the wall.