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Higgins fears for future

Postby Andre147

An excelent article on the InsideSnooker website, noticed John was very honest in his assessment of how his game currently stands and I definately agree with what he says.

http://www.inside-snooker.com/snooker/2 ... cdasp02o8z

Despite that, I do think he has at least 1 or 2 more rankers left in him, might not be Majors, but he's definately good enough to win regular rankers, like I've been saying recently, I do see him be a bit like Ebdon in recent times and win one every now and again.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

I do agree with John on the number of tournaments, and like he says, he should be managing them better. The money list will help, but being in the top 16 doesn't mean what it used to now anyway.

And I agree. I think he will win another ranking event, but equally I do think he is on the decline. Maybe he will win another major too. Can't see it being the WC though.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Simone

Perhaps he has watched too much those american tv-shows which says that tattooes they make will just miracliously dissappear when Ronnie and Barry both snaps their fingers rofl rofl rofl rofl :shrug: :shrug: :bump1: :bump1:

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Simone

Ayrshirebhoy wrote:He'll be back. Form is temporary class is permanent.


Pete (again) screwed her head back in with no time at all rofl rofl rofl rofl

:shrug:

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Skullman

edwards2000 wrote:I do agree with John on the number of tournaments, and like he says, he should be managing them better. The money list will help, but being in the top 16 doesn't mean what it used to now anyway.

And I agree. I think he will win another ranking event, but equally I do think he is on the decline. Maybe he will win another major too. Can't see it being the WC though.



Quick reread tells me he wants to stay in top 16 'for vanity's sake' (and probably to avoid qualifying for the Crucible).

I think he'd play a lot better if picked and chose and forgot about rankings. I've said this a few times now, but I don't think it's a coincidence that his best performances in the last few seasons have come after extended breaks. Shanghai 2012 was his first ranker of the season and he kept it up for a couple of weeks afterwards. Same this season with him winning the Bulgarian PTC and making the final of Wuxi.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Ayrshirebhoy

Simone wrote:
Ayrshirebhoy wrote:He'll be back. Form is temporary class is permanent.


Pete (again) screwed her head back in with no time at all rofl rofl rofl rofl

:shrug:



Do you write your posts through google translate??

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Wildey

After his enforced absence he came back angry and single minded. Every great player reaches the end of the line this is John Higgins time he might still throw in a good win or 2 but hes no longer the force he was and never will be again.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

Ayrshirebhoy wrote:He'll be back. Form is temporary class is permanent.


Decline is also permanent... ask Jimmy White, Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry and pretty much any snooker player in history once they lose their edge. John is not a spring chicken.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Sickpotter

edwards2000 wrote:Honest John hahaha :P Not gonna lie, hope he is finished.

Also, blaming a cue is a very tired, old excuse for loss of form.


Cue trouble excuses are often used yes but there's very good reason for it.

A problem with your cue is much more noticeable when you play to a high standard. Most club players won't notice a significant impact when switching cues simply because a minor deviation in how they feel the strike, apply side, etc. is irrelevant. They haven't spent 1000s of hrs hitting the same shot over and over so they only know that "usually" when they strike the ball "about here" they get their desired result. At the pro level players strive to hit every shot exactly the same way and expect the same "feel" and reaction each time. This builds muscle memory, consistency and confidence. If one practices hitting a ball one way to get one result for years and now (with a new cue) hitting the ball the same way no longer gives the same result you lose confidence.

I can pick up any virtually any ash cue with a tip and string together a 40 break but playing to a professional standard is a different story. If I'm going to knock in a ton I have to be playing with a cue that hits very similar if not exactly the same way as the cue I've practised with for years does.

Being uncomfortable with your cue and struggling to find a new one is pure torture. Often players try to "adjust" to a new cue rather than keep looking.

When looking for a new cue players often find ones that hit almost right and try to adapt, usually to their demise. You can't easily retrain yourself to hit a ball differently when you've drilled the correct method (for your cue) into you through 1000s of hours of practise. It probably takes longer to "un-learn" how you strike the ball than it does to learn it to begin with.

Hendry and Robidoux both lost their cues and were never the same players again. Robidoux disappeared from the tour after having made top 16 within a couple of years of joining the tour. Hendry managed to hold on longer due to a higher level of natural talent (IMO) but really didn't play the game as well with his new cue.

Robidoux said 100% he never played as well after his cue was lost, it destroyed his confidence. Hendry has never said it was losing his cue that was his downfall but I have no doubt it contributed.

Ronnie seems the be one of the few exceptions with regards to switching cues and IMO it's due mainly to his tremendous natural talent.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Andre147

Sickpotter wrote:
edwards2000 wrote:Honest John hahaha :P Not gonna lie, hope he is finished.

Also, blaming a cue is a very tired, old excuse for loss of form.


Ronnie seems the be one of the few exceptions with regards to switching cues and IMO it's due mainly to his tremendous natural talent.


Exactly, unless you're Ronnie of course who can win a Masters title no less with a brand new cue. :hatoff: :bowdown:

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby GJ

Andre147 PGC wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:
edwards2000 wrote:Honest John hahaha :P Not gonna lie, hope he is finished.

Also, blaming a cue is a very tired, old excuse for loss of form.


Ronnie seems the be one of the few exceptions with regards to switching cues and IMO it's due mainly to his tremendous natural talent.


Exactly, unless you're Ronnie of course who can win a Masters title no less with a brand new cue. :hatoff: :bowdown:


or a player having to change to a new tip hours before his masters semi <cool>

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Andre147

GJ wrote:
Andre147 PGC wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:
edwards2000 wrote:Honest John hahaha :P Not gonna lie, hope he is finished.

Also, blaming a cue is a very tired, old excuse for loss of form.


Ronnie seems the be one of the few exceptions with regards to switching cues and IMO it's due mainly to his tremendous natural talent.


Exactly, unless you're Ronnie of course who can win a Masters title no less with a brand new cue. :hatoff: :bowdown:


or a player having to change to a new tip hours before his masters semi <cool>


Robbo? When was that? can't remember.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby GJ

Andre147 PGC wrote:
GJ wrote:
Andre147 PGC wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:
edwards2000 wrote:Honest John hahaha :P Not gonna lie, hope he is finished.

Also, blaming a cue is a very tired, old excuse for loss of form.


Ronnie seems the be one of the few exceptions with regards to switching cues and IMO it's due mainly to his tremendous natural talent.


Exactly, unless you're Ronnie of course who can win a Masters title no less with a brand new cue. :hatoff: :bowdown:


or a player having to change to a new tip hours before his masters semi <cool>


Robbo? When was that? can't remember.




yeah his tip broke v Williams in quarters and he beat trump in semis with a new tip

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

I'm sorry but I don't buy that. A whole career and form and ability so heavily based on a cue. I can't see it. These guys also have the very best people making the cues. I think it's just a convenient excuse for loss of form, and is purely psychological otherwise. (and if it is psychological, that's a weakness of the player)

If you have a new expensive cue and you are a professional, you should be able to recapture any form you had if you practise with it enough. Darts players routinely change darts, flights, stems and you don't see them falling by the wayside.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Andre147

edwards2000 wrote:I'm sorry but I don't buy that. A whole career and form and ability so heavily based on a cue. I can't see it. These guys also have the very best people making the cues. I think it's just a convenient excuse for loss of form, and is purely psychological.


Not every player is as naturally gifted as Ronnie and able to adapt to every cue and even win a Major with a brand new one. John isn't using the cue as an excuse for loss of form, he said that was one of the reasons but he didn't say it was the Major one. Like Skull said, he should really pick and manage his season better in the future because that will give him better results I feel, and also like Wild rightly said it's coming to a time when decline is inevitable and Higgins and Williams are definately in decline. May produce the odd good performance here and there, especially Higgins, but nowhere near their prime.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

The cue thing doesn't make any sense at all away from psychological issues. Tennis racquets are changed every set or more, darts and parts of the dart are changed routinely. In football, conditions are never the same from game to game. Equipment changes in most sports. In snooker, for some reason, a different cue or a different tip has people running around like the Blitz is on.

If your career relies so much on the particular piece of wood you are using, you have a problem. Not the cue. I don't mean Higgins here either, I mean in general there is a hysteria.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Wildey

Tennis rackets are stringed up to how players want them to react. A cue is a natural piece of wood with its own personality its completely different.

and seifer lets hope your not getting stupidly argumentative without a argument of logic to back up what you say.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

Cues are manufactured to a player's spec. A tennis racquet is not the same every game. It changes. Even the tension in the racquet changes after a few games. This isn't about being argumentative, it is called expressing an opinion. I'm sorry if that doesn't meet your approval of what is acceptable. Stop making everything personal.

I really don't understand why snooker is seen as any different. Why people pretend it is different. It isn't. If any sport was going to show a problem with the equipment, it would be darts. Go and play it, and notice how often your flights have to be changed, how often the stems break. Not to mention barrel replacements. The same in snooker, the cue can be cut to a spec.

How many players out there have got a new cue and you don't hear anything about it? It's only when they lose that they mention the cue. Funny...

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Richproc

You obviously don't know much about snooker, because you could have 10 cues made by the same guy with the same specs and they would all play differently. As each piece of wood is slightly different with different properties, so it is not the same as darts or tennis rackets as they are made with synthetic materials so will play the same every time. Each cue will have different throws when using side so you have to get used to that when you get a new cue. I think the problem pros have is they sometimes don't give cues a long enough chance before changing them again these days. Any loss of form and they seem to change the cue straight away this was one of Hendry's downfalls as when his cue got broken he seemed to go through cues every few months where maybe if he stuck with one he might of had a bit more consistency as he did produce some good form at times like when he won the 2003 British Open

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

So from your post we deduce 2 things:

1. That one of the greatest players of all time (Hendry) was brought down, in part, by a piece of wood, but players in all other sports, and numerous ones in snooker were not. Numerous players change cues with no real ill effects. And all darts and tennis players change equipment throughout the year.

2. You didn't read my post. I make it clear that I KNOW it plays slightly differently, but the difference is tiny. With practice it will play much the same as the old one did, because with professionals it is being cut from a spec by professionals. It is not being bought at Argos for 20 quid.

Talent or no talent, if the cue really was as big a factor as you make out, Ronnie would not be rolling into town with a new cue and winning the Masters. The cue business is a hysteria, a nonsense, and the first thing a player starts to get paranoid about when losing. When winning, they never mention the cue, even if it was a broomstick.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Wildey

You really are underestimating Ronnies talent.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Andre147

Yeah edwards I mean if you're good enough than using a new cue shouldn't be a problem. But Hendry I think won all of his World Titles with his old cue and since using a new one he was never the same player.

Reading these posts I can easily come to a conclusion that the loss of form isn't only due to change of cues, far from it, but changing a cue all the time does make a diference, even if it is a tiny one. The tennis example is a good one, but there are differences between tennis rackets and a snooker cue, obviously. Tennis players seem to adapt better when using a new racket, but they too can sometimes play bad with them, because for instance if you remember last year Federer changed the specs of his racket after Wimbledon and after having very poor results and that didn't work out for him because he lost to players you would never dream of. I'm not saying that change was the sole reason,but it played a part no doubt.

But yes I agree that some are a bit paranoid with that regarding cues and ignore other major factors like age, the time older players mostly spend practicing, the desire and some departments of their game like long potting, safety and at times missing sitters that they never used to in their prime.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Andre147

Wildey wrote:You really are underestimating Ronnies talent.


Yeah I felt the same too, because Ronnie winning that 2009 Masters the way he did with a cue he had only been practice like, what was it.. less than a week before the Masters started, is definately one of the finest achievments in our sport, he said that himself in his post-match interview but also noted that for obvious reasons he wasn't feeling 100% confident on shots that required the use of side, because when using a new cue that's the thing that even the top players need some time to adapt, the use of side spin on the cue ball.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Skullman

edwards2000 wrote:Numerous players change cues with no real ill effects.


Sorry to just pick out this small bit, but could you give some examples of these numerous players?

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Andre147

Only Ronnie I think can do that and still be able to win tournaments.

I think his main point here is that people are giving too much importance to this issue, but even if that isn't the main reason for players to start losing form, it does play a part I've no doubt about that.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

Federer was suffering with a severe back injury last year. He has gone back to using a new, larger racquet for this season and reached the semifinal of Australian Open. Not to mention Federer is in massive decline. So Federer, at his age, changed his racquet to a completely different one and ended up in a slam semifinal. I suppose people are going to blame talent for that too? :-D

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Wildey

edwards2000 wrote:Federer was suffering with a severe back injury last year. He has gone back to using a new, larger racquet for this season and reached the semifinal of Australian Open. Not to mention Federer is in massive decline. So Federer, at his age, changed his racquet to a completely different one and ended up in a slam semifinal. I suppose people are going to blame talent for that too? :-D

what part of Tennis Racket is not a snooker cue you dont quite understand.

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby Roland

Andre147 PGC wrote:
Wildey wrote:You really are underestimating Ronnies talent.


Yeah I felt the same too, because Ronnie winning that 2009 Masters the way he did with a cue he had only been practice like, what was it.. less than a week before the Masters started, is definately one of the finest achievments in our sport, he said that himself in his post-match interview but also noted that for obvious reasons he wasn't feeling 100% confident on shots that required the use of side, because when using a new cue that's the thing that even the top players need some time to adapt, the use of side spin on the cue ball.


Spot on

Re: Higgins fears for future

Postby edwards2000

Wildey wrote:
edwards2000 wrote:Federer was suffering with a severe back injury last year. He has gone back to using a new, larger racquet for this season and reached the semifinal of Australian Open. Not to mention Federer is in massive decline. So Federer, at his age, changed his racquet to a completely different one and ended up in a slam semifinal. I suppose people are going to blame talent for that too? :-D

what part of Tennis Racket is not a snooker cue you dont quite understand.


So as I said, you believe all other sportsmen can change equipment on a whim, and yet snooker players are a completely different situation. That isn't logical. How many players have changed cue and got on with it? It's only when a player is losing that they, or their fans, make a big deal out of it.

Your response is simply moving the goalposts.

What logical reason can there be to claim that a professional, such as Hendry, can be brought down by losing a cue. The only rational way that can happen is if they are psychologically affected, and then it is nothing to do with the cue, and everything to do with a weakness in the player. As I said before, darts players routinely change the entire dart itself. You don't hear them moaning about it (and believe me darts do play differently. Taylor has changed his entire dart for another model before now too, and still kept winning).

So that's my final word on it. I think all the talk of the cue has actually made players believe it is more important than it is. When you are a professional buying a new professional cue, there is no excuse, other than mental weakness, for playing worse with it.