Post a reply

Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Snooker Overdrive

As you all know I'm still relatively new to snooker. Unfortunately I have missed the likes of Steve Davis and Stephen Hendry in their prime. While these two are very well know to most snooker fans, there are many other great players I would like to hear more about. So I had this idea, I'll make topics like this every now and then and veterans like Wild, Sonny, ... can tell something about these players, how they remember them, how good they really were back then. I think I'm not the only here who would like to know more about certain players before our time so to speak.

First up: Ken Doherty.

Turned professional in 1990, becoming World Champion in 1997 beating the seemingly invincible 6-times Champion Stephen Hendry in the final. Winning a total of 6 ranking events, he's had a fine career in an era that is considered the greatest of all time by many snooker fans.

Whoever witnessed him in his prime, what can you tell me about him? What was his biggest strength / biggest weakness? What were his greatest wins / worst defeats? Should he have won more, like at least one UK and Masters title? What was his style like, how aggressive / defensive was he? How did you perceive him at the time? How good was he compared to the big 4? What are your most memorable moments of Ken Doherty?

Thank all of you in advance.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby SnookerFan

I got on television asking Ken for his autograph at the 2008 Masters. He'd just beaten Mark Williams (for once), and I was in the front row so managed to grab him before he left the arena. What I didn't realise was that they'd left the cameras on him, so when a guy leaned across in a bright red T-Shirt saying; "Snooker Loopy", it got broadcast live on BBC and Eurosport. rofl

Worse still, because he'd delayed leaving the arena, 100 people were on him asking for autographs, so he turned and used my pen to sign another autograph. So there was a whole televised conversation of me looking like a wally asking for my pen back. rofl

He took so long signing everybody's autograph, Hazel had to apologise that he'd been delayed coming back to the studio. I guess this is what I can tell you about Ken though, he was a dude.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby SnookerFan

Also, he made the 2003 World Championship interesting. His match with Paul Hunter is now legendary, and he made a big comeback in the final vs Williams before ultimately losing.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Wildey

Ken Doherty's Record against Mark Williams is a very Good one having beaten him 14 times out of 32 times played.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby SnookerFan

Wildey wrote:Ken Doherty's Record against Mark Williams is a very Good one having beaten him 14 times out of 32 times played.


I was being facetious. Just because Mark beat him in a lot of the bigger, more famous matches.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby TheRocket

He's a great character , as a human and as a player. Could have really won the Masters and the UK next to his World Title in 1997. He was a little bit in the big fours shadow but nevertheless a very tough competitor and fast talented player. He could have beaten Peak Williams in that World and Uk Final.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby PLtheRef

People see him as someone who was within the chasing pack but back in the six years from 1997 to 2003 he was arguably one of the main chasers of the trophies. Having beat Hendry 18-12, it could be argued that he should have beaten Hendry by a greater margin having led 15-7 on the Monday afternoon.

1998 he makes the second best ever attempt at a defence of the trophy at the first attempt, beating a succession of good players to reach the final, and despite hauling Higgins back from 10-5 to 13-11 lost to Higgins

The 2003 World Championships will always remain Ken's tournament. Regardless of the fact that Williams beat him in the final, the first name that comes into mind when people mention 2003 is Doherty's. The Semi-Final Saturday against Hunter will remain one of the tournaments most memorable moments. Five months later he's involved in a really good semi-final at the LG Cup with Williams

Its only really from the end of 2003 that Doherty's form as one of the main chasers began to drop off for me, even with getting up to 2nd in the rankings.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Roland

Speak for yourself, when people say 2003 Worlds to me I think Mark Williams first, then Doherty.

I first saw Doherty when he reached the final of the Grand Prix against Jimmy White. I'd never heard of him, I was a big Jimmy fan and assumed he'd walk the final against this newbie no one had heard of. By the end of the match I knew he was a serious player.

In a world team event once he carried Ireland to the final against Scotland. I think Scotland were Hendry, Higgins and McManus and Ireland were Doherty and a couple of others I can't remember. In one important frame Doherty was 60 odd behind with just enough balls left on the table. He made the clearance under big pressure, and to anyone who would listen I tipped him to win the World title that year and sure enough he became the player to show the rest that Hendry was actually beatable at the Crucible.

In the late 90's / early 2000s you had the big four of Hendry, O'Sullivan, Higgins and Williams. Below them you had 4 others in Doherty, Ebdon, Stevens and Hunter. Doherty was the best of that bunch for me, not quite at the level of the big four but the best of the rest. He wasn't scared of the big four, he always stood up to them and gave them a game. He always produced his best form in the big matches, more likely to fall to a rank outsider than a big name. The big 4 knew that they had to be on their game to beat Doherty.

Doherty's game was based around scoring match play. He could make the centuries and get on a roll where he didn't miss for several frames at a time, he had huge bottle and he had a great tactical game. Much like Selby today, he was always at his most dangerous when allowed to put a spurt on coming from behind by a player perhaps showing signs of wobbling near the winning post.

He won 1 world title and finished runner-up twice, the same as Peter Ebdon which is a fair reflection on his standing in the game I'd say. The big surprise for me is how quickly he dropped out of the top 16 and started struggling for results, he seemed like the sort of player who was so solid his decline would be gradual like Steve Davis for example.

Overall a great player, however one I could never fully get behind and support because he lacked whatever factor it is to make me want him to win. I think part of it was his win at all costs mentality, taking luck as if he deserved to get it ("The luck of the Irish") and feeling hard done by if his opponent got some against him, pretty similar to John Parrott in that regard.

In 2003 he produced a series of comebacks, and one occasion when he lead Higgins 8-0 had to withstand a comeback himself. The semi-final was unfortunately a massive bottle job from Paul Hunter who blew a 15-9 lead. I remember people getting excited at Doherty making a match of it, but it was a case of Hunter throwing it away and Doherty gaining confidence from it. Thankfully Williams showed his class in the final by putting together two great frames from 16-16 after Doherty had completed a comeback otherwise he'd only have 1 and Doherty 2 world titles. And that would definitely have been wrong!

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Wildey

i will get back to you on this.....got plenty to say on this just not the time to sit down writing a long piece at the moment.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Thank all of you for your replies so far.

My impression of Ken Doherty is that he's a tough, great competitor who was right on the verge of becoming an all time great. I think he was a bit unlucky as well, with losing so many close finals especially in the UK and Masters and missing a 147 on the last black. So close and yet so far away. He's a very likable guy and has great knowledge of the tactical game, I always enjoy watching him as an expert or commentator on the BBC. A shame he declined so quickly after I started getting into snooker, the 2008 World Championship basically was the end of Ken Doherty the top player. Still what an great career he's had, especially considering the insane quality of the opponents he had to compete with - the big 4, Ebdon, Hunter, Lee and Stevens.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Wildey

When Ken won the World Championship in 1997 he was out played in Potting and Breakbuilding by Stephen Hendry.

Hendry made 5 Centuries and outscored Doherty by about 100 points despite winning 6 less frames.

But instead of wilting away by the Hendry power play Ken just kept on going playing each shot and each frame on merit without thinking too much about what Hendry was doing.

i think that has always been Ken Doherty's strength when he was in his prime and nothing illustrated that more than his 2003 World Semi final against Paul Hunter

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby SnookerFan

Wildey wrote:When Ken won the World Championship in 1997 he was out played in Potting and Breakbuilding by Stephen Hendry.

Hendry made 5 Centuries and outscored Doherty by about 100 points despite winning 6 less frames.

But instead of wilting away by the Hendry power play Ken just kept on going playing each shot and each frame on merit without thinking too much about what Hendry was doing.

i think that has always been Ken Doherty's strength when he was in his prime and nothing illustrated that more than his 2003 World Semi final against Paul Hunter


He wasn't called Comeback Ken for nothing. :hatoff:

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby PLtheRef

SnookerFan wrote:I agree with PL, I always think of Ken when it comes to 2003. Taking nothing away from Mark's win.


Absolutely, Williams conceded the second least frames to reach the final, and was a worthy champion, but Doherty is the reason 2003 is so memorable (IMO I add) because he was the one who did make the headlines, and generated what seemed like a rollercoaster.


And I'm not convinced you simply bottle a six frame lead without your opponent doing enough to win the session by the required 8-1 margin. Yes from 15-9 Hunter should have certainly made the final and he certainly should never have let that one get away but still, Doherty played well enough to beat him 8-1 on that day, which on the balance of that afternoon was the fair score

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby SnookerFan

PLtheRef wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:I agree with PL, I always think of Ken when it comes to 2003. Taking nothing away from Mark's win.


Absolutely, Williams conceded the second least frames to reach the final, and was a worthy champion, but Doherty is the reason 2003 is so memorable (IMO I add) because he was the one who did make the headlines, and generated what seemed like a rollercoaster.


And I'm not convinced you simply bottle a six frame lead without your opponent doing enough to win the session by the required 8-1 margin. Yes from 15-9 Hunter should have certainly made the final and he certainly should never have let that one get away but still, Doherty played well enough to beat him 8-1 on that day, which on the balance of that afternoon was the fair score


I certainly wouldn't call Paul Hunter a bottler. He kept is nerve to make a few comebacks himself, especially in Masters finals.

Ken obviously had as much about winning that match as Paul had about losing it. Though I'm sure Paul felt more than a few nerves once it went close.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby PLtheRef

SnookerFan wrote:
PLtheRef wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:I agree with PL, I always think of Ken when it comes to 2003. Taking nothing away from Mark's win.


Absolutely, Williams conceded the second least frames to reach the final, and was a worthy champion, but Doherty is the reason 2003 is so memorable (IMO I add) because he was the one who did make the headlines, and generated what seemed like a rollercoaster.


And I'm not convinced you simply bottle a six frame lead without your opponent doing enough to win the session by the required 8-1 margin. Yes from 15-9 Hunter should have certainly made the final and he certainly should never have let that one get away but still, Doherty played well enough to beat him 8-1 on that day, which on the balance of that afternoon was the fair score


I certainly wouldn't call Paul Hunter a bottler. He kept is nerve to make a few comebacks himself, especially in Masters finals.

Ken obviously had as much about winning that match as Paul had about losing it. Though I'm sure Paul felt more than a few nerves once it went close.


I remember watching it when I got home (it remains the most incredible final session I've seen at the Crucible Theatre in 14 years going there,) and hearing Clive say he was beginning to get anxious, might be about 15-12???? I know its on the video to the Matrix theme

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby SnookerFan

Witz78 wrote:He was always in the next bracket of players behind the BIG 4.

In there with Ebdon, Hunter, McManus, Lee, Stevens probably,


How would you rank those players in approximate order?

Are Ebdon and Doherty above the rest because they've been World Champions? I personally reckon Hunter would've been World Champion at some point, though sadly we'll never know.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Cloud Strife

Witz78 wrote:He was always in the next bracket of players behind the BIG 4.

In there with Ebdon, Hunter, McManus, Lee, Stevens probably,


McManus was never in that group. Sure, he might have been around the early to mid 90s. Come the era of the Big 4 however, he was already on the slide or maybe he wasn't good enough.

Re: Blast from the past: Ken Doherty

Postby Simone

Wildey wrote:When Ken won the World Championship in 1997 he was out played in Potting and Breakbuilding by Stephen Hendry.

Hendry made 5 Centuries and outscored Doherty by about 100 points despite winning 6 less frames.

But instead of wilting away by the Hendry power play Ken just kept on going playing each shot and each frame on merit without thinking too much about what Hendry was doing.

i think that has always been Ken Doherty's strength when he was in his prime and nothing illustrated that more than his 2003 World Semi final against Paul Hunter


Well, yes. His cueing is great and a quite unique, Ronnie used to copy that when he was younger. Ken´s one of the best, if not the best, going for the shot for nothings. He gets those pots very accurately. And obviously a very tenacious competitor, many times for example coming from 0-4 down to win 5-4. So not letting and allowing his head to drop.

I dont´know if he has had any particular weaknesses.

Must be said that Ding´s such a good when he gets on a roll. Like there against Trump.. Or even if it´s even like WC 2009 against Hendry, which was one of the best match there´s ever been. Ding´s just had some problems which Ken never has had.