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2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

There is news filtering on twitter today from reliable sources that next season, for 8 full ranking tournaments, everyone will start in round 1 irrespective of the ranking. In fact for all tournaments except the Australian Open, The Shanghai Masters and the World Championship.

If that's true, it's definitely a fairer system - no low ranked players having to win 2 matches before seeing a penny, while others get money for losing their first game - and one that renders ranking largely irrelevant except for the final cut deciding who stays on the Main Tour and for invitational events like the Masters.

It would mean that as long as a player does well enough in events he enters, he could easily stay in the top 64, while actually picking and choosing which events he wants to play in and start with as much chances to win as everyone else.

What remains to be seen is if they will be played in one go, in one location (not necessarily one venue) or if they will be split in two stages.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

about time

the PTC has proven that the cream will still rise to the top if they want to, but it offers a far more level playing field for all the guys down the bottom of the rankings who dont beat each other up before having a chance to face off against the mid ranked journeymen.

LET THE REVOLUTION FULLY START NOW !!!

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Stuart Bingham hinting that the whole events would be played in the "hosting" country. That's consistent with what I heard when in China and the only way a true rolling system can be run smoothly. Would also mean that players would know as soon as they enter events that they need to sort flights, hotels and visas out as there is no uncertainty about qualifying. Which means less stress and better prices.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Skullman

Well done Hearn for managing it if it's true. Was expecting more resistance from sponsors and people like the BBC who'd want to see the top stars at venue stages. The host country info is also good, although expenses will rack up even more for lower ranked players.

Any idea about the seeding? Will it be like main events, with a top player in each quarter, top eight in each eighth etc? Or like PTCs where one and two are in opposite haves and everything else is random? Or will there be seeding at all?

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

Itll be seeded like a normal tournament Skullman in the sense that the top 16 will be seeded on the assumption they all make the last 16, 1 and 2 make the final etc.

In effect though just make sure your in the top 32 so you have 2 qualifiers (1st v someone 65-128 and 2nd v someone 33-64) to make it to the venue, though with 128 players going there i suspect were heading towards more rankers played like the German one or PTCs with multiple tables in larger arenas / halls with a few tv tables on the go.

Im all for that as it means fans can see any player they want to at the venue in effect, and the elitism of the overhyped and self important "top 16" is consigned to the past.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Skullman wrote:Well done Hearn for managing it if it's true. Was expecting more resistance from sponsors and people like the BBC who'd want to see the top stars at venue stages. The host country info is also good, although expenses will rack up even more for lower ranked players.

Any idea about the seeding? Will it be like main events, with a top player in each quarter, top eight in each eighth etc? Or like PTCs where one and two are in opposite haves and everything else is random? Or will there be seeding at all?


Expenses will probably get higher for the lower ranked players based in UK. But it will also mean that Chinese players (or even simply Asian players) won't necessarily need to move to UK which they have to do now as all qualifs are played there. And it might be easier for players like Khairy or Hossein Vafaei Ayouri because it's easier for them to get a visa to China or Thailand than to UK. All in all it will become fairer to non UK players.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Casey wrote:Sounds good but I would be surprised if the UK goes to a flat draw, I expect it will stay the same as it is now.

The UK will get a flat draw. And IMO it's only a matter of time until the World gets it aswell.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby vodkadiet

Monique wrote:
Casey wrote:Sounds good but I would be surprised if the UK goes to a flat draw, I expect it will stay the same as it is now.

The UK will get a flat draw. And IMO it's only a matter of time until the World gets it aswell.


All the Grand Slam tennis tournaments have a flat 128 draw. What makes snooker's elite more precious?

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Casey

vodkadiet wrote:
Monique wrote:
Casey wrote:Sounds good but I would be surprised if the UK goes to a flat draw, I expect it will stay the same as it is now.

The UK will get a flat draw. And IMO it's only a matter of time until the World gets it aswell.


All the Grand Slam tennis tournaments have a flat 128 draw. What makes snooker's elite more precious?


Because all players play at the venue in tennis, this can't be done at all snooker tournaments.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

Casey wrote:
vodkadiet wrote:
Monique wrote:
Casey wrote:Sounds good but I would be surprised if the UK goes to a flat draw, I expect it will stay the same as it is now.

The UK will get a flat draw. And IMO it's only a matter of time until the World gets it aswell.


All the Grand Slam tennis tournaments have a flat 128 draw. What makes snooker's elite more precious?


Because all players play at the venue in tennis, this can't be done at all snooker tournaments.


Play the bulk of the early World Champs games at the EISS and Academy with just the big names in the Crucible Theatre.

No diff to Wimbledon with usually only Centre and Court 1 showcourts being shown on tv whilst the rest get on with it on the outer courts.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby vodkadiet

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote:Is there some reason why the Australian Open & Shanghai Masters aren't being changed?


Tennis or snooker? :?

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby snooky147

Witz78 wrote:
Casey wrote:
vodkadiet wrote:
Monique wrote:
Casey wrote:Sounds good but I would be surprised if the UK goes to a flat draw, I expect it will stay the same as it is now.

The UK will get a flat draw. And IMO it's only a matter of time until the World gets it aswell.


All the Grand Slam tennis tournaments have a flat 128 draw. What makes snooker's elite more precious?


Because all players play at the venue in tennis, this can't be done at all snooker tournaments.


Play the bulk of the early World Champs games at the EISS and Academy with just the big names in the Crucible Theatre.

No diff to Wimbledon with usually only Centre and Court 1 showcourts being shown on tv whilst the rest get on with it on the outer courts.

NO You want a flat draw then make it a fair one. This business of holding over so called better matches is not fair. Sod the big names. Whoever is in the top 16 at that time deserves their chance to play. I am not in favour of these so called big names being favoured in any way shape or form.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

what i suggested wasnt holding over matches though.

it was treating the Crucible like Centre Court or Court 1 and playing the TV and most attractive matches there.

The tournament would essentially start properly in Round 1 at the last 128 stage with the Crucible in use ALONG with the likes of the EISS / Academy too.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Roland

Looks like the World Championships as we know it will change beyond recognition soon then. I can see the format being reduced to best of 19s all the way one day. Hope not but that's the way it's going.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby snooky147

My point is that the top 16 at that time their matches should be played at the Crucible. You cant have a flat structure then cherry pick the seeds. I know I'm flogging a dead horse on this but I'm in a mood tonight so I thought I'd just put it out there, but Hearn and company will probably do it your way. Oh and before anyone says it, if Graeme was in the top 8 at that time I would still be arguing the same thing. They did the exact same thing recently in Germany, Held over 8 round one matches plus Dale v White(about time White was taken off the damn pedestal, and I am a lifelong fan saying that) and Dings match and disgracefully consigned the rest to a cubicle in Sheffield. So much ..........I better stop now lol.




These are my own views and not that of any player I know.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby snooky147

Sonny wrote:Looks like the World Championships as we know it will change beyond recognition soon then. I can see the format being reduced to best of 19s all the way one day. Hope not but that's the way it's going.



If they reduce it then I'm done. Just one more thing that's been ruined.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

to be honest i wouldnt be adverse to Rounds 1 and Rounds 2 at the Worlds being best of 19 and the QF and SF being Best of 25. Hardly making a great deal of difference IMO. Theres an argument for the final being reduced to best of 31 too IMO, though id be happy enough to see the best of 35 remain.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Sonny wrote:Looks like the World Championships as we know it will change beyond recognition soon then. I can see the format being reduced to best of 19s all the way one day. Hope not but that's the way it's going.


Where do you get that from? I don't think it will change except maybe for the semis reverting to best of 31. Not as long as it stays in Sheffield. If it goes to China then … anything can happen.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Roland

I guess as long as the last 32 is played at the Crucible then it will be the same albeit with shocks aplenty before the event starts with several big names not making the venue.

I personally don't have a problem with that however most people don't follow the game as closely as I do so I expect ticket sales won't be as strong as they usually are.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Roland

And as for the semis going back to best of 31, the reason they went up to 33 is to stop there being 7 frame sessions.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Sonny wrote:I guess as long as the last 32 is played at the Crucible then it will be the same albeit with shocks aplenty before the event starts with several big names not making the venue.

I personally don't have a problem with that however most people don't follow the game as closely as I do so I expect ticket sales won't be as strong as they usually are.


you are the one who insists that long matches allow for the better players to come out, as well as the ranking being fair, so why would you expect shocks aplenty? There might be a couple but that's all. I don't expect many shocks, except for players who's ranking doesn't reflect the real value. I won't name the names.


(and no it's not Selby)

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

the good players who are the true big names will win 2 games over a long format versus guys ranked 33 and lower easily.

those so called big names in the top 32 who arent as good as they think will be exposed under this flatter set up and the protection of the elite that is rife at the moment will be proven to have been a flawed error.

I will name names and i think your average snooker fan who buys tickets will know a lot of players on tour, other than the same old faces, and would welcome some new younger faces at venues instead of some of the same old tired faces likes Stevens, Days, Perrys etc.

And your casual tv snooker viewer would be more interested in seeing some new faces too

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Roland

Monique wrote:
Sonny wrote:I guess as long as the last 32 is played at the Crucible then it will be the same albeit with shocks aplenty before the event starts with several big names not making the venue.

I personally don't have a problem with that however most people don't follow the game as closely as I do so I expect ticket sales won't be as strong as they usually are.


you are the one who insists that long matches allow for the better players to come out, as well as the ranking being fair, so why would you expect shocks aplenty? There might be a couple but that's all. I don't expect many shocks, except for players who's ranking doesn't reflect the real value. I won't name the names.


(and no it's not Selby)


I would expect them because I know how capable a lot of the lower ranked players are! Whatever system you have though, you'll never get the best 32 players making it to the venue because there will always be several of them meeting each other in the prelims however you seed it.

Also playing the qualfiers at the EIS and not the Crucible for example, it's obvious that those more familiar with the surroundings are at more of an advantage than they would be at the Crucible against someone used to playing there.

Anyway, I don't care, I think flat 128 is good. I think they could also go back to playing qualifiers at the Barbican like they did first time around, you can fit 5 tables on the stage and have viewing from the balcony seats.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby vodkadiet

The semis at The Crucible need shortening to best of 25. That is the only thing I would change. That would make The Final much more different to the rest of the event.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby PLtheRef

The Barbican didn't have qualifiers though did they? They just had the first round and 12 games of the second round played before the cameras started on the Saturday!

The 128 flat draw is interesting but it also removes much of an emphasis on the rankings in that they are only going to be used to calculate the fields of the Masters and essentially a Masters + 16 qualifiers and over a much longer distance.

A 128 main draw World Championship is a risky proposition and if introduced I think would only be tenable with some sort of alterations to the format. If you go on the pattern of the present requirement of 71 frames to win the title then you'd expect potentially, Best of 17 frames to and including the last 16, best of 19 for the quarters and Semis to set up a best of 29 frame final as I don't reckon that players will be keen on increasing the tally required to 91, as it would be if the same qualifying structure, which would require 96 matches rather than the presently used 64 (not that this should make a difference as even with the present structure, a 128 man tour would require two more rounds and therefore 32 more matches)

From when I watched the qualifiers at the EIS for the Crucible in April, I know that there is enough players on a comparable level to bring in a flatter structure to the qualifiers, not directly sure as to whether this can work with the main draws, the German Masters will be interesting to see how this pans out; I'm surprised at the seemingly random choice of events keeping the traditional 32 finalists system. The World Championships I can understand and would support. It also will lead to a race to the Crucible essentially throughout the season. The others are being chosen essentially on the basis to maintain the ease of including wildcards into a 32 man+8 field.

It can all be improved by having the system that the LG Order of Merit system had, you don't earn any money towards your ranking unless you actually win a match. You get first round loser prize money but it doesn't go to your ranking total.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Alpha

It looks good, if its true, finally the international players get a fairer chance, and we will see some new faces on our tv screens.
However I don't see why Australia and Shanghai get to opt out and I hope Hearn leaves the format of the Worlds alone. It's bad enough he's dumbed down the UK.