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PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

OK

Part 1 of my study instigated by Moniques ramblings earlier is here <ok>

The purpose of this is to establish how many days players were playing for in this calendar year and what their earnings were.

Exhibit A - Mark Selby

I decided to start with Mark Selby since he is the World Number 1

Heres a list of his tournaments played in 2011, earnings from each event (before tax, expenses etc) and how many days he was involved in that event (also includes days in between matches during an event)

Championship League - £4,300 - 2 days
Masters - £15,000 - 1 day
Shoot Out - £2,000 - 2 days
Germany - £30,000 - 4 days
Welsh - £7,500 - 5 days
PTC Finals - £15,000 - 3 days
Championship League Finals - £3,000 - 2 days
China Open - £30,000 - 7 days
World Championship - £24,050 - 8 days
Wuxi Classic - £20,000 - 4 days
World Cup - £30,000 - 6 days
Australia - £15,000 - 5 days
Shanghai - £65,000 - 7 days
Brazil - £11,000 - 3 days
Power Snooker - £6,000 - 2 days
UK Championship - £12,050 - 3 days
PTC 1-10 - £16,100 - 13 days

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total events played = 26
Total days involved in tournaments = 79 days
Total earnings = £306,000

Average earning per event = £11,769
Average earning per day at a tournament = £3,873

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically the hardest working player in snookers new "busy" calendar and World Number 1, Mr.Consistency himself who goes deep into most tournaments, has still only been at tournaments just over 11 weeks out of 52 this year.

I think this answers beyond any doubt that Monique is in a dream world when she moans about the players already being overworked.

And yes before you retaliate with taxes and expenses to be deducted from earnings, and travelling to events, i already know that :D

Looking at this for Selby and realising that others who are moaning about the new calendar being too much, even though they are putting in far less effort than Selby makes them seem even more pathetic to be honest.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Bourne

Irrefutable mate <ok> Instead of pandering to the pansies, let's get even tougher on the players <ok>

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

That's nonsense. When they travel to go and return from tournaments, that's days they "work". Spending 25 hours on planes to go to Australia and the same to go back, that's hardly leisure time. When they are requested to be there before or after the tournament to do promo that's days of work. The practice they do, day in, day out is also work and it's essential for them to be able to perform.

Either you know that and this is a perfect example of being dishonest, or you don't and you're a complete idiot.
And Selby is one player who is completely run down by now and it's a shame that you haven't seen him in York. It was plain to see how disappointed he was and how tired he was.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Bourne

Monique wrote:That's nonsense. When they travel to go and return from tournaments, that's days they "work". Spending 25 hours on planes to go to Australia and the same to go back, that's hardly leisure time. When they are requested to be there before or after the tournament to do promo that's days of work. The practice they do, day in, day out is also work and it's essential for them to be able to perform.

Either you know that and this is a perfect example of being dishonest, or you don't and you're a complete idiot.
And Selby is one player who is completely run down by now and it's a shame that you haven't seen him in York. It was plain to see how disappointed he was and how tired he was.

He's awesome at peaking for the big events :chuckle:

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

the main point is even if i add on another 3 weeks for poor old jetlagged Selby then thats only takes him up to 100 days out of 365.

More tournaments added to the calendar = less time spent practicisng but more earning opportunties

i suppose if there was 364 days of snooker you would claim the players spent all of Xmas Day practicing

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby weewelshwitch

That schedule wouldn't work for the likes of Martin Gould or Tony Drago.

Gouldy turns up days, if not weeks!!, before he's playing, and doesn't go home until the end of most events, or so it seems!
Tony Drago turns up at events he's not even playing in!!

That's far fewer playing days than I would have expected for someone like Selby. Watching players coming and going from the Academy, or even staying here at the house, it feels like they're permanently on the road.

You need to add 3 days to each UK based event and probably 4 days to overseas events and the entire duration of events like World Cup, China, Australia, because of flight bookings etc.

Most players arrive at least one, if not two days before a lot of events (not PTCs) for practice at the venue.
For defending champions add 3 days for the promo work - travel-promo-travel because these are usually done several days, if not weeks before an event and often in some rather random locations.

Incidentally, on the other thread about tour schedule etc it doesn't really work to have two Euro PTCs in successive weeks.

It was proved last season with the two German events. It didn't work for the fans and was a big logistic problem for players.

They had the choice of 1) flying out, playing event one, flying home, travelling home, getting one, maybe two days practice, back to an airport and back out again.

Or

2) travelling out, playing event one and then finding somewhere to stay and practice and travel on to event two.

Option one saved a few nights hotels but doubled the air fares and travel costs.

Option two ramped up the hotel costs and issues of killing time between events, plus nowhere decent to practice.

It all often looks great on paper but the practicalities of trying to sort out travel, hotels, practice facilities etc are big issues for all the players.

If the calendar is too full it's preventing the players form fulfilling other important obligations too.

One is to do their normal exhibition work which is helping their income, particularly important for the lower ranked players, some of whom depend on that work.

The other is for the big names to fulfill some of the invites they get to do tours and exhibitions, particularly in the newer snooker countries. That is massively important to the developing countries and the sport there.

I've been in countries like Poland, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia when they've had one of the top players come to fulfil an engagement and the benefits are just huge.

For the players and fans to see them play, for the media coverage, which helps boost the interest and participation in the sport.

Ronnie and Jack are in Sofia today. I was there last year when John Higgins came over.

He was there for three days, so five days including his travel.

The response in Bulgaria was unbelievable. Live tv, fans everywhere, packed arenas.

And on the back of it Bulgaria have secured sponsorship to stage a major European amateur event again next year.

So leave some gaps in the calendar to allow this work. It's not all about playing days at the main ranking and invite events.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Witz78

Yeh your top golfers and tennis players would love to have 79 days off a year, let alone 79 days 'work' a year.
Anyone in doubt just go onto wikipedia and look at the golf and tennis calendars for 2011. Be more events by the end of Feb than there is in the full 12 months of snooker. Yet some people are snooker striving to head in the direction of these great sports. Total madness, Hearn thinks big, that way things will happen, like it or lump it i say.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Roland

Janie makes some good points but all you need with a more packed calendar is a different ranking list which allows players to take the odd couple of weeks off and not lose ranking position. Otherwise it's good seeing the stats and it'd be good to see some of the other players too. Maybe it's more fair to add 2 days to each event to allow travelling to the event.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

Thank you Janie for your input.
So if you go by Janie's estimation and experience about how players travel and how long before events they need to be there you need to add about 60 travel days to Mark Selby's 79 days of playing. That's without practice and without promo work. Make that round and say 140 days "on the road" in a year. That's lot for everybody, especially when you take into account that they have to cope with time difference and jet-lag when traveling to or from Asia (or Brazil).
As Sonny pointed out the solution - if the 52 weeks snooker calendar is the target - is to have a ranking system that allows the players to skip a number of events without losing on their rankings. Other sports have that, so it's no impossible to achieve. But for that to work you also need a higher number of exponents because not everyone will play in everything, and that again is only possible if enough of them make a decent living out of their sport. Meanwhile, the reasonable approach is to keep the calendar sensible and not to overload it.
A more progressive approach, with better attention to quality will not harm the sport, quite the opposite.
Another important factor to make it easier for everyone is to carefully structure the calendar so that traveling can be better managed. Selby traveling from Shanghai to Brazil on the back of his final was always going to be a recipe for disaster and he wasn't able to perform which is a shame for everyone.
The flat structure will scrap the need for qualifiying rounds and will also make the ranking less important as all players will start at the same level and have to play the same number of matches to win. This will allow for more flexibility. However the drawback is that the presence of the top "names" will not be guaranteed at television stages in any tournament. Therefore there is work to do with the sponsors. Currently they probably wouldn't feel comfortable with the idea. But it's all about building a different image and managing expectations. It can be done, but then again it will require thinking, time and resources.
Rushing things is not the way to do it for the best.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby weewelshwitch

There's another factor to take into account too. Those days away on the road aren't your average 9-5 days and then home to the pipe, slippers, kids and dog. They are days and weeks totally away, living out of a suitcase, away form family and friends.

I think the calendar just needs spacing better. There is still room for more events, but it's got to be planned and structured.

I've been on the road since 1999 and I think my record was 34 consecutive working days on the road. So it was the same for players.

Days on the road are long, very very long and hard. Players need rest time in between and practice time too.
I don't know how the golfers, tennis players etc cope except to say that their financial rewards are way higher than the snooker players and they are able to take their families etc on at least some of the trips.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

BH himself used the word blackmail to qualify the way he was doing it. So it's not a strong word. It's the word himself used.
And yes I'm telling you that many players, most of them are worse financially now than they were two years ago for a number of reasons:
- their earning opportunities have increased but not in any way in proportion of their expenses to play in tournaments including traveling. So at the end of the day they get less in their wallets while they actually work more.
- many of them were coping as pros because they had time to run a club, have another part time job or play exhibitions. They needed it because snooker never was a sport where exponents outside the very top made much money. Now they don't have the time to do this.

this is what Mike Dunn just said on twitter regarding the mood ahead of the next agm "most of the players i have spoke to are skint and worried Wsa staff will see there proxy form so have not voted."

This is speaking volumes, not only on how the players feel financially but about distrust in the authorities.
Last edited by Monique on 14 Dec 2011, edited 1 time in total.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Wildey

gallantrabbit wrote:let me explain. the first big section is Monique's reply to me in a private message. The second is my response.

gallant dont copy and paste PMs on to the forum.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

I do appreciate that time is needed to rebuild the sport and that things can't be perfect from the start. The money has to come from somewhere. However, the players have to pay their bills and feed their families now. That's an immediate and very concrete concern.
Many of them have been pros for many years and don't really know anything else. They have, each of them, contributed to keep the sport alive during the stagnation years. They deserve better than being told "If you don't like it go away (to put it politely)"
At the very least they deserve to be listened to and they deserve that the ones in charge of the game sit with them and do at least two things
1. Explain clearly what the plans are, what is expected from them, what are exactly their prospects in terms of financial reward in the immediate future. So that they can make an informed decision and feel treated with dignity, not like disposable items.
2. Try to find concrete "no or nearly no cost" actions that will ease things a bit for them, with them. I'm thinking structure of the calendar, entries in tournaments made as close as possible to the events themselves, corporate budget hotels and flights deals ...
Last edited by Monique on 14 Dec 2011, edited 1 time in total.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby gallantrabbit

Monique apologies for posting on the forum, but there really was no need to send me a private message on what had been a public topic.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

gallantrabbit wrote:Monique apologies for posting on the forum, but there really was no need to send me a private message on what had been a public topic.


There was one part of that message that I did not want to bring public to avoid some "off topic" discussion around something I had just brought up as an example of promotion that has been going on in Europe for years.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby gallantrabbit

The higher ranked players who are out of pocket must be the ones who have gone to the further events and gone out early. That's a risk you take. Selby has done a lot of travelling and his bank manager is not complaining although he hasn't actually won so much in terms of events.
The Mike Dunns of this world have to make decisions I'm sorry. Of course if the WSa can help by using your suggestions on hotels and flights I agree, it's not just what you earn.
Let's face it, Mike Dunn is more famous for being on the World snooker board with Mr Walker than he is for playing snooker. Maybe he is missing being a board member on generous expenses...? His presence on the board certainly brought no benefits for the game and probably just the odd joke for the board. Mike Dunn will never win even a PTC, he doesn't have it in him, so why should the WSA be essentially supporting a man who's made it to the TV stages a handful of times and then gone straight home?
Guys like him are, if you like, being given a final chance by BH. It's decision time. The game will not hang around for deadwood. Some guys like Mark Davis are taking the opportunity. Playing more snooker has certainly helped him. Others are not meant to be pros and should go back to coaching and running snooker clubs. Harsh reality sucks.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby gallantrabbit

Monique wrote:
gallantrabbit wrote:Monique apologies for posting on the forum, but there really was no need to send me a private message on what had been a public topic.


There was one part of that message that I did not want to bring public to avoid some "off topic" discussion around something I had just brought up as an example of promotion that has been going on in Europe for years.



point taken.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Eirebilly

Witz, do you honestly believe that Selby was only actually working for 79 days?

Just the travel time and the acclimitisation to these events is easily double the 79 days you quote, if not more. Its not as if players fly, to say Australia or china, get off the plane and go straight to work now is it.

Do you also think that practicing is not part of their work? To be in the position that Slby is in it takes a lot of dedication and practice and that is also a huge part of a players 'work'.

I am not saying there is too many tournements but it really does make me laugh when you wrap all this down to 79 days work in one year.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Bourne

I just can't believe how much people are defending them, these guys are pros playing at the top of their sport, of course we should expect them to be able to handle it. The sport is growing whether some people like it or not, it should be getting harder not easier.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Eirebilly

I am not defending anyone here at all. I just find it rather sad that someone can reduce all the practice, travelling and competing done by a player like Selby into only 79 days work out of 365.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Roland

I don't think Witz was out to prove anything other than to show what is possible and how much you can earn from a few days work, even if there are days required for travelling that it doesn't take into account. You can say when players are practicing and travelling it's part of their job, but that's not what they're being paid for. The misleading thing was perhaps to state the 70 odd days in a year as if there's nearly 300 free but I think it's good to see a breakdown such as the one Witz has put up because it shows what is available if you're good enough.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Bourne

Eirebilly wrote:I am not defending anyone here at all. I just find it rather sad that someone can reduce all the practice, travelling and competing done by a player like Selby into only 79 days work out of 365.

What's travelling, sitting down for a few hours and maybe going to sleep ? Practice, well that goes without saying, what else are we expecting them to do for the other 200+ days of the year ? These are supposed to be fit sportsmen, and it's hardly like snooker is the most physically demanding sport !

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Monique

Bourne wrote:
Eirebilly wrote:I am not defending anyone here at all. I just find it rather sad that someone can reduce all the practice, travelling and competing done by a player like Selby into only 79 days work out of 365.

What's travelling, sitting down for a few hours and maybe going to sleep ? Practice, well that goes without saying, what else are we expecting them to do for the other 200+ days of the year ? These are supposed to be fit sportsmen, and it's hardly like snooker is the most physically demanding sport !


It's a mentally extremely demanding sport and mental exhaustion is at least as hard to handle as physical exhaustion.
As for your first sentence in paragraph 2, it's pretty idiotic. You must never have been on a long haul flight in your life or you would know how you feel when you eventually land. Even if you "only sit" and even doze during it.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Roland

Yeah long haul flights are a nightmare, but they are made easier with modern technology such as laptops so you can watch films or whatever. I personally absolutely hate flying but I just get my head down and do it when needed and open my mind again once I'm out the other side. I would hate to be flying as much as a globe trotting professional snooker player though.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Eirebilly

Disagree. What Witz is trying to do is dumb this down so that the players look extremely spoilt. I would hazard a rough guess that the top players put in more than the average working mans 40 hour working week into practice and developing their skill. The practice that they do is every bit as important as the traveling and participating in events. I find it absolutely silly to think that a snooker player only 'works' around 70 days per year. That is what is being implied in the article. I say again, i dont believe that there are too many tournements in a year now but it should not be dumbed down to such low levels as if a player only works 70 odd days a year. Thats just ridiculous.

Bourne, not sure how much travelling you have done in your life professionally but personally i am away from home for over 6 months every year traveling all around the world. If you think that traveling for work is only sitting and maybe sleeping then i fear for you if you ever have to travel to other countries for work as its not as easy as you would think. Some people hink that its all great traveling for work and staying in hotels, and it is for the first 6 months, after that you miss sleeping in your own bed, having a normal life where you can visit your friends and having a normal 40 hour week work.

Re: PLAYERS WORK SCHEDULE - 2011

Postby Casey

I work about 60 hours a week - get 21 paid holidays a year and then what 6 - 6 bank holidays.

Snooker players have my sympathy's :hankey: