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2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Monique

http://welcometooncue.blogspot.com/2011 ... mours.html?
Ranking rumours
This is just a short blog to share some of the rumours being banded around in Sheffield this weekend.

While Barry Hearn has made huge strides to improve the amount of tournaments for players to compete in and create a new, fairer ranking system, everything isn't quite yet perfect.

Next season, there's likely to be even more changes to the game.

Using the weekend largely to chat, I found out different nuggets of information.

Like all rumours, some will be true and some are just gossip.

Anyhow, here's what I heard:
The ranking system will be changed to be determined by prize money
The PTC series will be reduced to 8 events
There will be a ranking event held in Brazil next season
There will more ranking events in China (up to 6)
New players on tour will be given two seasons

Posted by garymoss87 at 9:46 PM


Now these are rumours and to be confirmed of course, but what IF they are confirmed?
Here is my opinion

The ranking system will be changed to be determined by prize money

This will add tremendous pressure on the players as the ranking system will change even more quickly. Wins will be more rewarded than consistency but the incentive to go to the "small" tournaments will be very low. It could also seriously backfire at Barry Hearn. One good win - World Championship or UK - could secure a players spot such is the difference between tournaments (£250000 WC, £35000 Wesh Open, and $40000 Australia f.i). This will mean that the top guys will find very little motivation to travel as far as OZ or Brazil for a pittance. Bad idea IMO, and bad news if true.

The PTC series will be reduced to 8 events

Good news IF it remains 4 in UK and 4 elsewhere. But if prize money is the key to ranking, who is gonna go there unless they are blackmailed by a huge prize money in the Grand Final? Price money rankings could kill the whole concept.

There will be a ranking event held in Brazil next season
Pointless. Especially with the type of price money in there (and 46% taxes on top) if the ranking is based on price money.

There will more ranking events in China (up to 6)
Again, unless the price money is huge the top boys will not want to travel there 6 times, and risk burn-out. On the other hand the ones who need the money will have increased expenses (travels and accommodations are on the players now... ) How will this work? The ones who have the money will have more opportunities to pick and chose and those who don't might not be in a position to pay for it? And how will they squeeze that in the calendar (they need time for qualifs also remember, and if qualifs happen just before the event players will have even more travel expenses - last minute isn't cheap)

New players on tour will be given two seasons
About time! This is the only real good news in this lot.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Roland

I saw that last night as well. Here's my initial thoughts:

The ranking system will be changed to be determined by prize money - complete and utter bull idea beyond all bull ideas
The PTC series will be reduced to 8 events - it should be 8 from 12 events to count towards ranking. Premier League should be the sacrificial lamb to make room in the calendar.
There will be a ranking event held in Brazil next season - good
There will more ranking events in China (up to 6) - good
New players on tour will be given two seasons - excellent

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Monique

I agree with 12 PTCs with 8 best counting.
I don't see why we need 6 rankings in China. I'd rather have 3 in China and 3 in mainland Europe with decent price money.
Brazil for me is pointless. i'm totally unconvinced that there is a market in South America right now, or the resources to start and develop one. Waste of resources.
I think that the role of the premier league for the promotion of snooker on television and players exposure and in places where there are no tournaments is hugely underestimated. It would be an error to scrap it. I wouldn't mind if they scrapped the shot-clock but I think the tournament should stay.
I also think we should have more invitationals in UK/Ireland rather than more ranking events in unlikely remote places. Bring back the Irish and Scottish Masters rather than going to Brazil for instance.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Roland

I'm not saying scrap it, I'm saying reschedule so it's not such a blocker in the calendar.

I think the prize money ranking list idea is horrible/disgusting/trashy/unfair/biased/whatever else you want to call it.

I think the PTCs should remain the backbone of the tour albeit moved to better venues than Sheffield and possibly with each having more an identity such as the Paul Hunter classic and the Pink PTC7.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby SnookerFan

If we assume that all these rumours are 100% true, here's my opinion on them.

The ranking system will be changed to be determined by prize money - Absolute farce of an idea. I hope this one really is purely rumour. Doesn't really need explaining why this is a retarded idea, in my opinion.

The PTC series will be reduced to 8 events - Depends what they replace it with, if they get rid of these and add the new tournaments in China and Brazil, then I'm happy with it. The PTCs are good for getting people playing, but should never get in the way of full rankers.

There will be a ranking event held in Brazil next season - Good, if handled better then the Brazil tournament was this year.

There will more ranking events in China (up to 6) As long as they are well populated, and bring in money then okay. I'd like to see a couple more in the UK though. Got to go where the crowds are though, I guess.

New players on tour will be given two seasons - A good idea.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Casey

Prize money determining ranking position - no way and Monique points out some major problems with that.

PTC's reduced to 8 events? - Hopefully its 4 from Sheffield that drop off - the ones in Mainland Europe are vital.

Brazil a ranking event - Well its work experimenting to see. Hearn is not stupid so will not through money at a dead horse. There must be a compiling business plan to support this.

Newbies to the tour given two years - Love it! The up and coming players will be given a real chance which will freshen up the tour :-)

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby SnookerFan

If true about the PTCs dropping four off the calendar, it will be interesting to see which ones they pick. The four from Sheffield should go, but will they? They pay a lot of money, so like to use the facilities in Sheffield.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Roland

Last year there was talk of expanding the PTCs to 18 events, now there's talk of reducing to 8. Don't believe rumours until there's an announcement confirming things. I think 12 is fine but the bone of contention is how many count towards ranking. I think if you had 8 or 9 results counting of the 12 it would ease things significantly. I don't see why you can't keep the points off the rolling rankings until the revision after the PTC finals and do it all in one go.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby SnookerFan

Sonny wrote:Last year there was talk of expanding the PTCs to 18 events, now there's talk of reducing to 8. Don't believe rumours until there's an announcement confirming things. I think 12 is fine but the bone of contention is how many count towards ranking. I think if you had 8 or 9 results counting of the 12 it would ease things significantly. I don't see why you can't keep the points off the rolling rankings until the revision after the PTC finals and do it all in one go.


Yes, I think we all understand that these are rumours, not fact.

This is more a thread on whether we think the suggestions are good ones.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Witz78

for me this is the first major step in the sport of snooker being lost from Britain to China, honestly 6 tournaments over there is overkill and is extreme. What we gonna have in the UK, the 3 majors and the crappy Welsh Open, id sooner sacrifice the Masters to the Chinese and have a couple of extra normal rankers in the UK. Scrap the Premier League and free up the Autumn, unless this happens just how exactly are they going to fit all these extra rankers in?

If theres 8 PTCs instead of 12, then scrap the 4 closed door ones in Sheffield first.

Order of Merit will reward winners rather than consistency but for me it will create more of a closed door mentality for the elite because a losing top 16 seed in round 1 will still get the same pound on the order of merit than a guy whos come thru 4 qualifying rounds and narrowly loses in the first round proper.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Tubberlad

No problem with new players being given two seasons, that's a fine idea in my opinion.

8 PTCs? Not sure. If it's the Sheffield ones that are being dropped, then okay.

Prize money determining the rankings? Absolutely terrible idea. Doesn't bear thinking about.

More events in China? Grand, but six does seem a bit much.

Ranking event in Brazil? I didn't watch the Brazil Masters at all so not going to comment.

But that prize money idea needs to be scrapped, we'll have a situation where the World Open is considered to be equal to the UK which is a farce.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Casey

Why is 6 in China overkill when the UK used to hold much more than that? I would say they would plan to make the Wuxi into a ranker and the one being held in India this year is probably included in that. So it's probably more a case of 6 in Asia PAC rather than China.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Tubberlad

Casey wrote:Why is 6 in China overkill when the UK used to hold much more than that? I would say they would plan to make the Wuxi into a ranker and the one being held in India this year is probably included in that. So it's probably more a case of 6 in Asia PAC rather than China.

Fair point

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Witz78

Casey wrote:Why is 6 in China overkill when the UK used to hold much more than that? I would say they would plan to make the Wuxi into a ranker and the one being held in India this year is probably included in that. So it's probably more a case of 6 in Asia PAC rather than China.


well considering that 80% of the tour are British or Irish players then i think theres a reason why the UK used to and prob still should hold a good percentage of the seasons events

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Roland

We've got enough snooker on our shores. There's no way I'd advocate keeping the bulk of events over here to the detriment of spreading the game globally.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Casey

Witz78 wrote:
Casey wrote:Why is 6 in China overkill when the UK used to hold much more than that? I would say they would plan to make the Wuxi into a ranker and the one being held in India this year is probably included in that. So it's probably more a case of 6 in Asia PAC rather than China.


well considering that 80% of the tour are British or Irish players then i think there's a reason why the UK used to and prob still should hold a good percentage of the seasons events


Very true, but with the majority of up and coming players not on our shores it makes sense to move. Another option is to run it like golf with an Asia PAC tour and a European tour with all players getting together for the majors?

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Witz78

Sonny wrote:We've got enough snooker on our shores. There's no way I'd advocate keeping the bulk of events over here to the detriment of spreading the game globally.


im all for the global expansion of the game but my main gripes are the lack of a tournament in Scotland and Ireland. Im not suggesting 80% of tournaments should still be here but it seems the UK fans are being screwed when theres clearly a lot of UK demand to watch live top class snooker.

And on the flipside is taking 6 rankers to China really spreading the game globally?

thats just putting a lot of the sports eggs in one basket as it was with the UK for so long.

Id far sooner see more European rankers emerge, surely thats what these EPTCs are setting out to do ultimately?

And as for the Chinese tournaments, its been a gripe of mine for so long that we hear of the great interest in China, with 100 million audiences, millions playing the sport and they have such a growing economy etc yet the events they do stage have paltry prize funds on offer.


And one last point, if an Order of Merit is established, does that mean at events where prize money doesnt start till the last 48 or 64 then, you could win 2 qualifying games and still be no better off in the rankings than the guy you beat in round 1? I can see no way this OoM can work tbh, the current ranking points system aint ideal but a few tweaks here and there should iron out any problems.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Casey

I would be willing to bet its not 6 tournaments in China but 6 in Asia PAC -

Australian Open
Shanghai Masters
China Open
Wuxi Classic - ranker?
Indian ranker
AN other to be developed?

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby roy142857

Casey wrote:I would be willing to bet its not 6 tournaments in China but 6 in Asia PAC -

Australian Open
Shanghai Masters
China Open
Wuxi Classic - ranker?
Indian ranker
AN other to be developed?


Would make more sense.

I wonder if they'll ever bother with New Zealand?

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Witz78

Sod N.Z

Canada, South Africa and the US of A the priorities for me first.

the one problem with a multi-global sport is that unlike the likes of golf and tennis, snooker doesnt have millions of pounds every week to lure the big names into playing so is such a dramatic expansion of the game viable

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Wildey

barry hearn can go to buck himself price money rankings are the biggest piece of rubbish.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby mishcka

Not sure about US, snooker will never make it big there, they'll probably take it and transform it into some sort of just pot that one ball into that very big pocket at this very tiny table sort of sport.
If they have got to expand, and they cannot do without expanding then why not to go to Japan. It will make people like me very happy (I can eat sushi and watch live snooker at the same time :D).

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Wildey

apart from the rankings bullocks that will never work far to lobsided 250,000 down to 10,000 unworkable and totaly will reduce participation in PTC.

but the other ideas id go along with.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Wildey

and talking as a Hendry fan had Price Money been in Operation last 2 seasons Hendry would have still been in the Top 16 because he kept winning first matches and he wouldnt have given a bullocks at all about PTC

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Witz78

even continually LOSING r1 games as a top 16 seed would prob keep u in the top 16 under these daft Order of Merit plans

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:even continually LOSING r1 games as a top 16 seed would prob keep u in the top 16 under these daft Order of Merit plans

its being used in the PDC but its all very ametarish way of working out rankings.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:In golf there is an order of merit - fair enough but it's seperate from the ranking system.

A ranking system based on prize money is lazy, cheap, tacky, thoughtless, flawed, unprofessional, unfair, unhealthy and goes against just about everything a fair ranking point system should be about.

is rankings ever really used in golf ?

there is no seedings in golf tournaments based on rankings is there ?

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby Witz78

Wild wrote:
Sonny wrote:In golf there is an order of merit - fair enough but it's seperate from the ranking system.

A ranking system based on prize money is lazy, cheap, tacky, thoughtless, flawed, unprofessional, unfair, unhealthy and goes against just about everything a fair ranking point system should be about.

is rankings ever really used in golf ?

there is no seedings in golf tournaments based on rankings is there ?


well the golf rankings do determine who plays in the top events and majors and who plays in the smaller tournaments and also who loses their pro tour card so i guess the system is relevant.

Re: 2012/13 - ranking rumours

Postby PLtheRef

I think that China is okay as it is, - we have four tournaments in the season there at the moment - Wuxi, Shanghai, China Open and - if it goes to six rankers then I can only assume that some of these would replace some PTCs and to be held on those

The Order of Merit I actually think is a very good idea, - if you win the World Championships then you deserve the accreditation and the rewards with which that brings. - the easiest way to compare it to now is that it is simply the system with larger numbers of points available. - It'll be interesting to see what they do in terms of money won for seeds losing their first matches. - I'm not convinced that it will be of too greater an advantage to the top 16, to reach the top 16 in the PDC OOM you are still looking at betwee 80 and 100 grand a season.

You never know, they may have stumbled across the idea here.

And I think Casey may be right about a ''Pacific Tour'' of tournaments