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Is snooker a sport or a game?

Sport
10
67%
Game
2
13%
Don't care
3
20%
 
Total votes : 15

Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Roland

It all started with this:
antsmcgill Anthony McGill
What's the difference between a sport and a game? Trying to settle a debate


and this:
judd147t judd trump
"ding has just handed me a challenge - a rematch with him on the 17-18 sept in gaungzhou, i accept!"


on Twitter earlier and during the course of the day it opened up a whole line of debate.

A Judd Trump v Ding Junhui big money match over in China sounds like something dreams are made of for someone like Judd. And obviously it's something people in China would turn up in big numbers to see given the stock of both after Judd's China Open win, Ding being a household name and their incredible Crucible semi-final.

But the date mentioned clashes with the Brazilian Masters which is taking place between 15-18th September, which incidentally explains the absense of Judd and Ding from the official line up in Brazil announced last week. However, the rules were changed at the end of last season so all televised snooker events must be agreed by World Snooker prior to taking place so it won't happen, certainly not on those dates.

The (presumably) big money match with no doubt massive amounts of money being gambled across China sure sounds like a big event. But is it sport?

The Brazilian Masters as a non-ranking invitational event was turned down by some other big names too, notably the usually ever present Mark Williams and John Higgins - would this have been the case if it was a ranking event? Of course not! Is the Brazilian Masters invitational a sporting event or an exhibition event? If it was a ranking event would that change it from a game into a sport?

The recent snooker World Cup in Thailand with all the nations represented by two man teams was like something you'd see at the Olympic games. Not the most gripping event at times with some of the lower nations struggling and matches lasting several hours longer than they should have, but it was really competitive with the players representing their countries as well as each other. It wasn't a ranking event but it mattered to a lot of people and it was played 100% as a sport.

The Ding v Trump match sounds like the Ronnie v Jimmy match which recently took place as part of the Snooker Legends tour. As a one off people turn up in numbers, hell Snooker Legends are still selling the event for download on their website! But really, can this side of snooker be classed in the same bracket of snooker as a PTC in terms of snooker being a sport?

The Premier League, great event that it is, uses a shot clock and has an invitational field. Granted it improved the criteria this time around (albeit sneakily allowing Jimmy in through the Seniors Champion back door), but with dead matches towards the end of the league stage and a shot clock, is this sport?

So, what is the difference between snooker as a sport and a game and why does it matter?

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby gallantrabbit

Not sure I know the difference or if it matters really. What I do find funny though is in Braqzilian snooker clubs players are referred to as athletes :D
Just get another pint in then...

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

Do we know the line up of the Brazilian Masters then? Or is it still up in the air a bit?

Sorry, I may be focussing on the wrong bit, but that's what reading that bit about Trump and Ding makes me more curious about the Brazilian Open then it does about this afternoon's big Twitter debate. rofl

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Wildey

to be perfectly honest i cant see trump being that interested in chinese money matches anyway unless he can take his car with him there....

Bristol to London money matches looks favorite from where i stand .

but on the question snooker is a sport its not broadcast on the gaming channel its on eurosport <ok>

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Bourne

It depends on the medium I guess, if it's me and a mate playing at the local boozer then it's a game, if it's the pros out there that we watch on the TV it's obviously a sport.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

This always struck me a bit of a 'who cares?' kind of an argument.

Personally I think it's a game of skill, rather then a sport. But it's classified a sport for televised purposes as there is no such thing as "Sky Games 1" or "British Eurogames". But if people disagree with me, I can't really be fussed to argue. To me, it's a bit like arguing when the afternoon ends and the evening starts. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

People are just too snobby to admit that something they are passionate about is a game. Because a game implies it isn't serious. And fans are always serious about sports they follow... But who really cares? If you like it, watch it.
Last edited by SnookerFan on 02 Aug 2011, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Wildey

SnookerFan wrote:This always struck me a bit of a 'who cares?' kind of an argument.

Personally I think it's a game of skill, rather then a sport. But it's classified a sport for televised purposes as there is no such thing as "Sky Games 1" or "British Eurogames". But if people disagree with me, I can't really be fussed to argue. To me, it's a bit like arguing when the afternoon ends and the evening starts. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

People are just to snobby to admit that something they are passionate about is a game. Because a game implies it isn't serious. And fans are always serious about sports they follow... But who really cares? If you like it, watch it.

i think its more of a sport than Ice Skating,Gymnastics or even controversially Boxing because that is decided by judges opinions of what happened rather than you know without argument who won or loss by points scored.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Odrl

Surely it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other? Tennis and basketball are games for example, and you don't get people questioning whether they are sports or not. On the other hand, swimming is clearly not a game, but still a sport.

Sport just means some physical activity that is competitive and organized. In many cases, snooker being one of them, it involves a game.

SnookerFan wrote:To me, it's a bit like arguing when the afternoon ends and the evening starts.


That would be 7pm. ;-)

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Bourne

Odrl wrote:Surely it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other? Tennis and basketball are games for example, and you don't get people questioning whether they are sports or not. On the other hand, swimming is clearly not a game, but still a sport.

Sport just means some physical activity that is competitive and organized. In many cases, snooker being one of them, it involves a game.

SnookerFan wrote:To me, it's a bit like arguing when the afternoon ends and the evening starts.


That would be 7pm. ;-)

So tennis doesn't involve any physical activity that is competitive or organised :chuckle:

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Odrl

Bourne wrote:So tennis doesn't involve any physical activity that is competitive or organised :chuckle:


Huh, surely my post wasn't that confusing? ;-)

Tennis quite clearly does involve organized physical competition, that's what makes it a sport. But it's also a game. You challenge someone to a game of tennis, not a sport of tennis, don't you?

A game is basically a set of rules, a concept designed for two or more people to compete against each other. Or in some cases, only for one person to basically compete against the game itself. A game doesn't necessarily end where a sport begins. The sport of tennis involves a widely organized system of competitions in the game of tennis, for example. And it's the same with snooker.

That's what I was trying to say. ;-)

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Bourne

Odrl wrote:
Bourne wrote:So tennis doesn't involve any physical activity that is competitive or organised :chuckle:


Huh, surely my post wasn't that confusing? ;-)

Tennis quite clearly does involve organized physical competition, that's what makes it a sport. But it's also a game. You challenge someone to a game of tennis, not a sport of tennis, don't you?

A game is basically a set of rules, a concept designed for two or more people to compete against each other. Or in some cases, only for one person to basically compete against the game itself. A game doesn't necessarily end where a sport begins. The sport of tennis involves a widely organized system of competitions in the game of tennis, for example. And it's the same with snooker.

That's what I was trying to say. ;-)

No, a game of tennis is a series of 4+ points, which at least 6 go into a set. A match of tennis is the set(s) all put together, to decide a winner. <ok>

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Odrl

Bourne wrote:No, a game of tennis is a series of 4+ points, which at least 6 go into a set. A match of tennis is the set(s) all put together, to decide a winner. <ok>


Ah yes. The people who are incapable of distinguishing between a game in the wider sense and the term "game", as used specifically in the scoring system in tennis, will just have to imagine another example I'm afraid. :-)

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Roland

What I'm getting at is that there are two types of snooker - the competitive sort with World Snooker sanctioned events and the entertainment sort with shot clocks and one off exhibitions. In order to appeal to the mass market there's a market for these one off "showcase" events like the Shootout which jazzes up snooker and shows off the personalities of the players but there's a danger of it being seen as the way forward.

I've thought about this too much today and am starting to question why it bothers me if snooker is seen as a sport or a game. I just know the snooker I prefer is the one with real pressure where it means so much to win i.e. ranking events.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

Odrl wrote:Surely it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other? Tennis and basketball are games for example, and you don't get people questioning whether they are sports or not. On the other hand, swimming is clearly not a game, but still a sport.

Sport just means some physical activity that is competitive and organized. In many cases, snooker being one of them, it involves a game.

SnookerFan wrote:To me, it's a bit like arguing when the afternoon ends and the evening starts.


That would be 7pm. ;-)


It's clearly 6pm, you fool. :grrr:

rofl

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

Sonny wrote:What I'm getting at is that there are two types of snooker - the competitive sort with World Snooker sanctioned events and the entertainment sort with shot clocks and one off exhibitions. In order to appeal to the mass market there's a market for these one off "showcase" events like the Shootout which jazzes up snooker and shows off the personalities of the players but there's a danger of it being seen as the way forward.

I've thought about this too much today and am starting to question why it bothers me if snooker is seen as a sport or a game. I just know the snooker I prefer is the one with real pressure where it means so much to win i.e. ranking events.


I think that's true of all of us. And, I think you're right that it's possible we'll start seeing these fun exhibiton events as the way forward.

Though, this seems to be a different conversation to the 'is snooker a game or a sport?' discussion.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Roland

No it's the same conversation because one is sport and the other isn't

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Monique

Sonny wrote:
I've thought about this too much today and am starting to question why it bothers me if snooker is seen as a sport or a game. I just know the snooker I prefer is the one with real pressure where it means so much to win i.e. ranking events.


That's probably the most sensible you said all day. It's a matter of preferences and what you appreciate in the sport/game.
Also your obsession with the shot-clock is second only to Sei.fer's, just the other way around. Is basketball not a sport just because shots are timed? That's nonsense.
Snooker under shot-clock is just as much a sport as snooker without it is. It's just a variant of the game and one that brings a different set of skills and abilities in the highlights, just like chess and blitz chess are two variants of chess and BTW have different ranking systems. You don't appreciate this variant; that's fair enough, don't watch it, but it might be different for others and you should respect that.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

Monique wrote:That's probably the most sensible you said all day. It's a matter of preferences and what you appreciate in the sport/game.
Also your obsession with the shot-clock is second only to Sei.fer's, just the other way around. Is basketball not a sport just because shots are timed? That's nonsense.
Snooker under shot-clock is just as much a sport as snooker without it is. It's just a variant of the game and one that brings a different set of skills and abilities in the highlights, just like chess and blitz chess are two variants of chess and BTW have different ranking systems. You don't appreciate this variant; that's fair enough, don't watch it, but it might be different for others and you should respect that.


Good points, but here is my well thought out rebuttal.

Shot Clocks = :bird:

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Roland

Monique wrote:
Sonny wrote:
I've thought about this too much today and am starting to question why it bothers me if snooker is seen as a sport or a game. I just know the snooker I prefer is the one with real pressure where it means so much to win i.e. ranking events.


That's probably the most sensible you said all day. It's a matter of preferences and what you appreciate in the sport/game.
Also your obsession with the shot-clock is second only to Sei.fer's, just the other way around. Is basketball not a sport just because shots are timed? That's nonsense.
Snooker under shot-clock is just as much a sport as snooker without it is. It's just a variant of the game and one that brings a different set of skills and abilities in the highlights, just like chess and blitz chess are two variants of chess and BTW have different ranking systems. You don't appreciate this variant; that's fair enough, don't watch it, but it might be different for others and you should respect that.


I appreciate the fun in the Shootout, but to suggest a shot clock doesn't dumb down the game and it is just as much a sport as without is clearly 110% incorrect.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

Sonny wrote:
I appreciate the fun in the Shootout, but to suggest a shot clock doesn't dumb down the game and it is just as much a sport as without is clearly 110% incorrect.


Personally, I think the shot clock argument has little bearing on the sport vs game debate, which is already somewhat unnecessary.

I'm not convinced about the arguments that shot clocks requires a different set of skills. It just requires a specific set of skills. There is a difference. There's nothing stopping a player playing fast in a normal game of snooker. A player can play each shot in 25 seconds or less in a normal game, if he so desires. All a shot clock does is remove the element of a person taking longer then 25 seconds, if that's what they want.

A regular snooker game doesn't encourage any style of play, so you can't say Shot Clock encourages a different style of play. Different to what? You can play any style you like.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Monique

It's a different set of skills because it asks for a different strategy. In shot-clock you might not have enough time to work out every possible shot or safety possibility. But neither has your opponent and you know it. If you have the opportunity to watch again how Murphy beat Robertson in Power snooker it was clearly a matter of Neil not understanding the strategy behind that sort of game. Ronnie beating Mark Selby in the PL last season was the same thing to an extend: he cleverly forced Mark to exhaust his time outs and then he had him.
Not it doesn't dumb out snooker but it requires for different thinking. I'm pretty certain that Ali will do well under shot-clock because he is clever and does adapt to different strategies.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Wildey

shot clock obviously brings in the Big Break game show element you shouldn't get in real snooker.

snooker is a point scoring sport not a timed sport. you lose the essance of snooker if players play any old shot because a clock tells them to rush.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

What do people make of the changes to the Premier League this season? Better or worse?

Personally, I never liked the PL that much. Especially the fact you could get a draw. It remains to be seen whether this new effort is an improvement. But I get so bored of shot clock snooker, I won't watch much anyway.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Roland

SnookerFan wrote:
Sonny wrote:
I appreciate the fun in the Shootout, but to suggest a shot clock doesn't dumb down the game and it is just as much a sport as without is clearly 110% incorrect.


Personally, I think the shot clock argument has little bearing on the sport vs game debate, which is already somewhat unnecessary.


Then you've not understood the arguement or you're one who could remain oblivious to the dumbing down of snooker by not paying enough attention to what goes on.

:santa:

Shotclock is all very entertaining and Ronnie is the best at it, we know that. I've still not seen another player sacrifice 5 points for a bit more thinking time when there isn't a pot on other than Ronnie and it's a fairly obvious tactic if you're switched on enough to use it at the right time. But that doesn't stop shot clock snooker from being dumbed down snooker which only suits a small percentage of players.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

Sonny wrote:
Then you've not understood the arguement or you're one who could remain oblivious to the dumbing down of snooker by not paying enough attention to what goes on.

:santa:

Shotclock is all very entertaining and Ronnie is the best at it, we know that. I've still not seen another player sacrifice 5 points for a bit more thinking time when there isn't a pot on other than Ronnie and it's a fairly obvious tactic if you're switched on enough to use it at the right time. But that doesn't stop shot clock snooker from being dumbed down snooker which only suits a small percentage of players.


I think the whole game vs sport debate is somewhat unneccessary is all. They could start calling it a Cheese Sandwich rather then a sport for all I care.

And, though I may not pay attention too much to the backstage workings of snooker, nobody enjoys a traditional ranker more then me. The World Cup didn't work for me, the Premier League never has either. I didn't really see enough of the Sky Shootout to make a decision on whether I enjoyed it or not, but I would be amazed if I liked it as much as I did a traditional ranker. A lot of these things, I agree, can be dumbing down somewhat. But if they help promote the game, then I can see them as a neccessary evil as long as they don't beging to replace snooker, or take on more prestige. If they did, I'd make one of Wild's tantrums look like a polite complaint.

I just can't see how spending time deciding whether each exhibition/tournament is a game or a sport is particularly important. The game dumbing down and becoming something other then snooker is.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Wildey

so its a cheese sandwich for lunch today then <laugh>

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

Wild wrote:so its a cheese sandwich for lunch today then <laugh>


No ham. <laugh> I just thought Cheese was a more humerous example somehow. I dunno why.

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby SnookerFan

So, this Judd vs Ding match. Is it happening or not? If the rules have changed, it sounds like it can't. But why would Judd and Ding schedule an exhibition match for television which wasn't allowed? :huh:

Or is it just a Twitter joke that I've missed out on?

Re: Snooker: Sport or Game?

Postby Wildey

SnookerFan wrote:So, this Judd vs Ding match. Is it happening or not? If the rules have changed, it sounds like it can't. But why would Judd and Ding schedule an exhibition match for television which wasn't allowed? :huh:

Or is it just a Twitter joke that I've missed out on?

this season World Snooker players cant play on TV Period without WSA Sanctions no matter if there's a tourno on or whatever...

its a contract they signed before the season started.

WSA will never sanction a event if they did not enter a WSA Run tournament ie Brazilian Masters during that week.