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Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby vodkadiet

Having read quite a few articles on this year's World Championship final I would have got the impression that the young Bristolian was nailed on to win multiple World Championship titles, if I didn't know better. However, believe it or not, Trump, even though only 21, may never get a better chance to win snooker's most coveted prize. Of course, it is also possible he may dominate the game and win 3, 4, or more, Crucible Championships.

Bookmakers rarely get things totally wrong, and I was curious to know what price Trump was to win the World Championships next year. He is a best priced 12/1 to win next year, and infact according to Bet365, less than likely to win before 2016(2/5), not to win by the conclusion of the 2015 Championships). Infact he is only even money not to win by the conclusion of the 2020 Championships.

The thing with snooker is that the World Championships only come along once a year, and there are usually 7 or 8 players more than capable of winning, and you only need one bad session to put you in real trouble.

As boring as it may seem, you may need to have best of 145 frame matches(like they had in the old days)to take away the element of luck. Trump, no doubt had bad running in the final, and but for a flick here and there, would have won the Championships.

Jimmy White would have been World Champion in 1982 if Alex Higgins had had an extra dose of vodka when 2 down with 3 to play.

It is by very small margins that titles are won and lost, and Trump may never be as relaxed and pressure free as he was coming into this year's Championship. He may have missed his best chance. It will depend on how tough he is mentally. Will he handle expectation well? There are many ponderables.

O'Sullivan was, according to many, a certainty to win 8 world titles after he won the 1993 UK Championships. It never happened. Trump may now have the same level expectation as O'Sullivan had back then. How will he handle it? I used to play professional tennis in my youth, and I will always remember what my first coach said to me, "The game at the top level is 70% mental, and 30% physical". Those who played at a dedicated level in any sport will understand that premise, even if they argue about the percentages.

Trump is great for the game. He is hopefully going to be an integral part of the game's development abroad. No one has brought as much excitement to the game.

He has the potential to become a great, but will he tow the line and play match winning snooker, rather than play the entertainment card?

The opposite argument will be that if he curbs his natural game that may cost him, and that brings me back to my point of, will he be able to ever play as free and expectation free as he did this year?
Last edited by vodkadiet on 05 May 2011, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby vodkadiet

GJ wrote:his odds are shorter than robbos for next years worlds

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl


I saw 12/1 each of them.

Players rarely reach the final 2 years running unless they are totally established. Robertson will be very dangerous next year as he has already won it, and will not be the focus of attention.

Robbo at 12/1 is more than a decent bet.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby GJ

vodkadiet wrote:
GJ wrote:his odds are shorter than robbos for next years worlds

rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl


I saw 12/1 each of them.

Players rarely reach the final 2 years running unless they are totally established. Robertson will be very dangerous next year as he has already won it, and will not be the focus of attention.

Robbo at 12/1 is more than a decent bet.



couldnt agree more :hatoff:

Now i know why the crucible curse is so famous :grrr:

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Tubberlad

Excellent article Frame.

I agree with most of that. I think it is most likely Trump will win this title more than once, but nothing is a given. Personally, I feel he is the most naturally talented player since O'Sullivan, but natural talent does not equal overwhelming success. See Jimmy White.

Trump as you say is good for the game, he seems a good lad, his play under pressure was very, very good and his potting was impressive. Lets hope he can fulfill his potential.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby vodkadiet

Tubberlad wrote:Excellent article Frame.

I agree with most of that. I think it is most likely Trump will win this title more than once, but nothing is a given. Personally, I feel he is the most naturally talented player since O'Sullivan, but natural talent does not equal overwhelming success. See Jimmy White.

Trump as you say is good for the game, he seems a good lad, his play under pressure was very, very good and his potting was impressive. Lets hope he can fulfill his potential.


You know your stuff for one so young!.

:ahh:

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Caledonian Craig

I would be extremely surprised if Judd Trump doesn't win at least one world title in his career.

I am confident because of a number of factors and those being a combination of things. Firstly, at 21 he has time on his side and he has already reached one world final with room for improvement to his game. After all he only lost 18-15 to a player that quite a few label as the best all-round player of all-time (not me by the way) in John Higgins. Also like I touched on during the tournament I get the feeling that we have now seen the best of Higgins, O'Sullivan and Williams with parts of their game showing signs of being affected by age factor (not so much Williams but certainly the other two). Now those three players have been dominant in the sport since the mid-1990's and so once their challenge begins to peter out it leaves the current challengers of Neil Robertson, Ding Junhui, Mark Selby, Mark Allen and the younger generation apart from Trump are nowhere at the moment. So you see the door is definitely ajar now for Judd Trump and I can't see who is going to slam it shut in his face to be honest.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Wildey

Caledonian Craig wrote:I would be extremely surprised if Judd Trump doesn't win at least one world title in his career.

I am confident because of a number of factors and those being a combination of things. Firstly, at 21 he has time on his side and he has already reached one world final with room for improvement to his game. After all he only lost 18-15 to a player that quite a few label as the best all-round player of all-time (not me by the way) in John Higgins. Also like I touched on during the tournament I get the feeling that we have now seen the best of Higgins, O'Sullivan and Williams with parts of their game showing signs of being affected by age factor (not so much Williams but certainly the other two). Now those three players have been dominant in the sport since the mid-1990's and so once their challenge begins to peter out it leaves the current challengers of Neil Robertson, Ding Junhui, Mark Selby, Mark Allen and the younger generation apart from Trump are nowhere at the moment. So you see the door is definitely ajar now for Judd Trump and I can't see who is going to slam it shut in his face to be honest.

thing is in the next 5 years there will be other players in the mix so id say one maybe even 2 of the most likely to win now just wont win it and destined to never win it just like jimmy.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby vodkadiet

Caledonian Craig wrote:I would be extremely surprised if Judd Trump doesn't win at least one world title in his career.

I am confident because of a number of factors and those being a combination of things. Firstly, at 21 he has time on his side and he has already reached one world final with room for improvement to his game. After all he only lost 18-15 to a player that quite a few label as the best all-round player of all-time (not me by the way) in John Higgins. Also like I touched on during the tournament I get the feeling that we have now seen the best of Higgins, O'Sullivan and Williams with parts of their game showing signs of being affected by age factor (not so much Williams but certainly the other two). Now those three players have been dominant in the sport since the mid-1990's and so once their challenge begins to peter out it leaves the current challengers of Neil Robertson, Ding Junhui, Mark Selby, Mark Allen and the younger generation apart from Trump are nowhere at the moment. So you see the door is definitely ajar now for Judd Trump and I can't see who is going to slam it shut in his face to be honest.


Yes, in theory he should win one day, but it often depends on the draw, the run of the ball. and the state of mind a player has coming in to a World Championship.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Monique

I find it absolutely preposterous to write off Judd Trump just because he lost in the final against a player as experienced and as hard at match play as Higgins is. It's also ridiculous to claim that a young Hendry would have trashed his opponent under the circumstances. That's something we just don't know.
Judd Trump had never before this tournament played in any match longer than best of 19, never reached the one table set-up in the Crucible and there is no doubt that somehow his inexperience showed and his wonderful potting wasn't enough to win the match. Well this is similar to what happened to the young Hendry in 1989, who lost in the semis to the very experienced Davis, despite Davis HB being only 71 in that match, for 139 to Hendry. Quire telling is the fact that Hendry couldn't win a frame in the last session. If anything, Hendry had more experience of long matches because he had reached round 2 the previous year. And there again he had been beaten by the more experienced White, who only had a HB of 86 while Hendry made 3 centuries.
Nobody knows if Judd Trump will be World Champion: there have been quite a few who have been tipped as potential WC winners and never did it (up to now): Stevens, Maguire, Selby... There have been guys most people would have written off with a snirk and did it, Graeme Dott comes to mind.
But to claim that he will never do it, because he didn't succeed in his first final against a very experienced player, and already 3 times winner (at the time of the match) is just ridiculous.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby N_Castle07

I totally agree Monique, lets remember it wasn’t too long ago people was saying that Judd wouldn’t even reach a ranking event final let alone win one and make the final of the worlds.
Jimmy White has gave Judd very good advice about dedication and how to act off the table. White says that Judd isn’t making the same mistake he did by going to nightclubs all the time and partying hard with the rich and famous. Now that Trump has reached the final of the World Championship i fear his new fame could lead him down the wrong path. We have all known about Trump for years but now his fame has shot through the roof (even my mam knows who he is now.) We’ve all seen that rare natural talent has came at a high price for Alex, Jimmy and Ronnie. I hope Trump doesn’t make the same mistake they did.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Wildey

its not writing him off its being realistic

this year alone there was 5 or 6 genuine contenders with 4 or 5 disappointed.

players that are being touted as future World Champion will not win it and others will thats facts of life.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Witz78

N_Castle07 wrote:I totally agree Monique, lets remember it wasn’t too long ago people was saying that Judd wouldn’t even reach a ranking event final let alone win one and make the final of the worlds.
Jimmy White has gave Judd very good advice about dedication and how to act off the table. White says that Judd isn’t making the same mistake he did by going to nightclubs all the time and partying hard with the rich and famous. Now that Trump has reached the final of the World Championship i fear his new fame could lead him down the wrong path. We have all known about Trump for years but now his fame has shot through the roof (even my mam knows who he is now.) We’ve all seen that rare natural talent has came at a high price for Alex, Jimmy and Ronnie. I hope Trump doesn’t make the same mistake they did.



personally id settle for Judd never winning a World Championship so long as he has a long career as one of the top players in the world, and stays true to his fans playing the maverick gung ho attacking style weve come to expect.

and if he wants to hit the nightclubs and party, and spend his money on woman, wine and song, then thats fine by me too. It wouldnt do snooker any harm to have a hellraiser among its ranks.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby wheelsofsteel

Monique wrote:I find it absolutely preposterous to write off Judd Trump just because he lost in the final against a player as experienced and as hard at match play as Higgins is. It's also ridiculous to claim that a young Hendry would have trashed his opponent under the circumstances. That's something we just don't know.


I don't think Trump can be written off. His time may come.

But lets have a reality check. The only reason he was inexperienced was because previously he had not been good enough to reach that stage of the event. It is utter rubbish to say that Hendry was more experienced. No, he was just better, having been a regular at the Crucible because of what he had achieved as a player over four or five years.

Even if Trump had won, he would only have been the second-youngest player of all time to win the title. As it is, he's joined the club with Higgins, O'Sullivan and Ding as members of who would take Hendry's youngest-ever title away from him.

As for your ridiculous claim, Hendry did trash someone in the final, called Jimmy White. People may not have seen White at his best, but Hendry won ten frames on the spin to deny White - the second-best player in the game for a decade or more - in the 1990 final.

Or did Trump just not do that because he never had to :|

I cannot deny Trump is a capable player, but on paper, no more capable than Carter, Stevens, Bond or Selby. This whole Trump love-in needs to be put in perspective.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Witz78

wheelsofsteel wrote:
Monique wrote:I find it absolutely preposterous to write off Judd Trump just because he lost in the final against a player as experienced and as hard at match play as Higgins is. It's also ridiculous to claim that a young Hendry would have trashed his opponent under the circumstances. That's something we just don't know.


I don't think Trump can be written off. His time may come.

But lets have a reality check. The only reason he was inexperienced was because previously he had not been good enough to reach that stage of the event. It is utter rubbish to say that Hendry was more experienced. No, he was just better, having been a regular at the Crucible because of what he had achieved as a player over four or five years.

Even if Trump had won, he would only have been the second-youngest player of all time to win the title. As it is, he's joined the club with Higgins, O'Sullivan and Ding as members of who would take Hendry's youngest-ever title away from him.

As for your ridiculous claim, Hendry did trash someone in the final, called Jimmy White. People may not have seen White at his best, but Hendry won ten frames on the spin to deny White - the second-best player in the game for a decade or more - in the 1990 final.

Or did Trump just not do that because he never had to :|

I cannot deny Trump is a capable player, but on paper, no more capable than Carter, Stevens, Bond or Selby. This whole Trump love-in needs to be put in perspective.


was 1992 he won 10 frames in a row v White :D

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby vodkadiet

Witz78 wrote:
N_Castle07 wrote:I totally agree Monique, lets remember it wasn’t too long ago people was saying that Judd wouldn’t even reach a ranking event final let alone win one and make the final of the worlds.
Jimmy White has gave Judd very good advice about dedication and how to act off the table. White says that Judd isn’t making the same mistake he did by going to nightclubs all the time and partying hard with the rich and famous. Now that Trump has reached the final of the World Championship i fear his new fame could lead him down the wrong path. We have all known about Trump for years but now his fame has shot through the roof (even my mam knows who he is now.) We’ve all seen that rare natural talent has came at a high price for Alex, Jimmy and Ronnie. I hope Trump doesn’t make the same mistake they did.



personally id settle for Judd never winning a World Championship so long as he has a long career as one of the top players in the world, and stays true to his fans playing the maverick gung ho attacking style weve come to expect.

and if he wants to hit the nightclubs and party, and spend his money on woman, wine and song, then thats fine by me too. It wouldnt do snooker any harm to have a hellraiser among its ranks.


Well,we've already got Dominic Dale. What more do you want?

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Witz78

vodkadiet wrote:
Witz78 wrote:
N_Castle07 wrote:I totally agree Monique, lets remember it wasn’t too long ago people was saying that Judd wouldn’t even reach a ranking event final let alone win one and make the final of the worlds.
Jimmy White has gave Judd very good advice about dedication and how to act off the table. White says that Judd isn’t making the same mistake he did by going to nightclubs all the time and partying hard with the rich and famous. Now that Trump has reached the final of the World Championship i fear his new fame could lead him down the wrong path. We have all known about Trump for years but now his fame has shot through the roof (even my mam knows who he is now.) We’ve all seen that rare natural talent has came at a high price for Alex, Jimmy and Ronnie. I hope Trump doesn’t make the same mistake they did.



personally id settle for Judd never winning a World Championship so long as he has a long career as one of the top players in the world, and stays true to his fans playing the maverick gung ho attacking style weve come to expect.

and if he wants to hit the nightclubs and party, and spend his money on woman, wine and song, then thats fine by me too. It wouldnt do snooker any harm to have a hellraiser among its ranks.


Well,we've already got Dominic Dale. What more do you want?


are you sure........... :chin:

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Monique

I never wrote that Judd WILL win it, just that writing him off because he didn't when reaching his first World final looks ridiculous in my eyes. I also wrote that we don't know if Hendry would have done better, not that he defo would not have done better. And I'll stick by both. White has NEVER won the World title - good as he was. Why? IMO because his lifestyle and the mental side were left wanting. That's not something that you can say about John Higgins.

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby GJ

Mon

From what a i hear john higgins would have won a few more worlds but his dedication to the game wasnt as strong after his 98 world title till the middle of the next decade

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby GJ

Witz78 wrote:Jimmy for me will always be looked upon as a better player than John Higgins.

world titles mean nothing IMO.



convenient

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Witz78

GJ wrote:Mon

From what a i hear john higgins would have won a few more worlds but his dedication to the game wasnt as strong after his 98 world title till the middle of the next decade



yeh that was the period during which he was getting snake hissed and refused onto planes in Malta, and also when he was being ignorant to snooker fans who spoke to him in nightclubs :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:Jimmy for me will always be looked upon as a better player than John Higgins.

world titles mean nothing IMO.

ffs

you been on the funny fags <laugh>

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Witz78

Wild wrote:
Witz78 wrote:Jimmy for me will always be looked upon as a better player than John Higgins.

world titles mean nothing IMO.

ffs

you been on the funny fags <laugh>



not at all, i stand by my claims that te best 5 players to grace the baize in no particular order are

Davis, Hendry, Ronnie, Jimmy and Alex <ok>

Re: Trump not destined to ever win the World Championships

Postby Wildey

ok that proves who the greatest is Hendry beat Jimmy 4 times in finals and once in a semi final between 1990 and 1995... none of the other of your top 5 got that record against another member of your top 5 in a WC Match.