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Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Tubberlad

When Mark Williams won the World Championship for the second time in 2003, I think many people expected him to become the dominant player of the decade. Although he struggled to finish Ken Doherty off in the final, he was by far the best player for the first 16 days, breezing past everyone.

At that stage, Williams had won two UK Championships, two Masters and two World Championships. He was also crowned World Number One for a second time, making him the third most succesful modern day player.

Williams won the next ranking event also, the LG Cup, making him only the third player to hold all 4 televised BBC events. He had 15 ranking events to his name, and a figure in the region of 25 was more than achievable by the end of the decade. What a change we have witnessed.

Within months, Williams' form was a pale immitation of what it once was. He was knocked out of the 2004 World Championship by Joe Perry, and the aura he held was fast fading. He has never come close to reclaiming those heights.

When he won the China Open in 2006, a comeback was expected. He performed very well at the World Championships a month later, and probably should have beaten Ronnie O'Sullivan. Ronnie and Mark have never been great friends, but Ronnie proclaimed him 'as one of the best players he had ever faced'. And it's hard to argue with that.

Unfortunately, the comeback never materialised, but Williams is again beginning to show signs of a resurgance. He made the semi-finals of the Grand Prix, and although he was very much outshone by Ding Junhui, it was an encouraging result. He played awfully against Hendry, but got away with it, and was marvellous against Stuart Bingham. Maybe their is hope.

One thing is for sure: Mark is one of the best players I have ever seen. His potting is unrivalled, and I've never seen anyone who can put away a raking long ball quite like the Welshman. His safety is also very sharp, and although his cue-ball control isn't remarkably good, his greatness has never been in doubt. His 147 at the 2005 World Championship is quite possibly my favourite, as he had to pull out some ridiculous shots to keep the run going.

I know Williams put his family first, and fair play to him for that. But have we been deprived of a few great chapters in snoker history? Had he the potential to be a better player that Higgins, and maybe even O'Sullivan? Is the fact that he's rated as a comfortably top-10 player in the games history a testament to his greatness considering his years of underachievement? Or has he the ability to reclaim his position and maybe even win another World title? Your view would be very much appreciated.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

Between 1998 and 2003 Mark Williams was the best player in the world the consistency he had then i for one expected him to carry it on for the remaining of the naughties and he didnt whitch was very disappointing for snooker. to talk about Mark Williams as 3rd best player of the naughties after the start he had is a surprise ...he is only the 3rd player after Hendry and Davis to win the UK,Masters and the World in the same season in 2002/2003 thats how dominant he was only 7 years ago a lot of water gone under the bridge since then for marks career.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Seifer Almasy

No. I think Mark did very well to win what he did in the toughest era of snooker. He didn't have longlivity, but he did have one of the greatest games in his best years.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

I'm sure I'll have my say about Mark Williams in some depth at some point on this forum. After all, he's my favourite player of all time and his game deserves to be dissected at length.

I will say this though - right now he's as good as finished. His performance at the Grand Prix was lucky to get to the semi-final and once there he seemed totally out of his depth. It was a shocker of a tournament really which bizarrely resulting in some decent ranking points.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Seifer Almasy

I think MArk Williams is not unlike Hendry. Once his long game went a bit dodgy he didn't start playing more safety and get his hand back on the table, get some confidence going.

I think having an amazing long game and bottle and break building can make you a great for a few years but not a decade. It has to be measured in the end with a good safety game, because the long range clinical finishes will start to become less and less.

This is where Higgins and O'Sullivan have both outdone Hendry and Williams. It is where Davis succeeded and why he lasted so long (his game was naturally this way as we know)

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Seifer Almasy

He never used safety play to get his chances, He always used long range game and he still tries to like Hendry. That is where he fails. His confidence is shot.

If he had deployed tactics and safery play more often when his long gme had gone tits up, he would not have fallen so far. He didn't, and this is the result.

It isn't coincidence that O'Sullivan has managed to stay WN1 witha marmite long range game.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

No, he fails on run of the mill shots like blacks off the spots. His long potting is always played with a plan B in mind in case he misses i.e. "shots to nothing" as Willie Thorne calls them. He still plays the right shots, but he misses shots he should get rather than shots he shouldn't take on. There's a big difference.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Casey

Agreed Sonny, Mark Williams was the king at creating the shot to nothing when actually there didn't seem to be one, he didn't go for stupid shots as he was always very clever. Its the routine shots that have cost him dear not his long potting (which is still top 4 material)

His play during the 02/03 season was as good as anyone has produced, that’s including Hendry, Davis and O'Sullivan

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

sonny

seifer doesn't understand the subtleties of Marks safety play its far too complicated for him to understand.

Mark was never a 100% pot man like Hendry was he always had his own way of playing shots to nothing that looked even more reckless but he knew exactly where that white was going.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

I think that's fairly obvious wild. It should also be fairly obvious why someone who was such a huge Williams fan like me is now a huge Selby fan. The two are different but their styles are related. Both extremely good thinkers around the table and stand out from the crowd.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:I think that's fairly obvious wild. It should also be fairly obvious why someone who was such a huge Williams fan like me is now a huge Selby fan. The two are different but their styles are related. Both extremely good thinkers around the table and stand out from the crowd.


Selby plays differently to Williams but i can see the similarities with them and both when they get on a roll can pot them off the lampshades and clear up.

the main difference is Mark when he started winning carried on winning.

at the moment Selby is seen by many to be a flash in the pan and they dont see how clever a game he has because hes not converting it to trophies.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Seifer Almasy

I am sorry but no one can deny Williams greater weapon was his long range potting, which you even admitted not long back, kept him in many a frame when the white ball went astray.

I am not saying it is the be all and end all, but it is a large contributing factor to his problems, and like Hendry he hasn't changed his game at all. O'Sullivan has.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

He hasn't needed to change his game. His game has always been damn near flawless. It's his inner confidence that's the problem, no natural decline on the long pots or anything like that. As I said before, it's the shots he should be potting that he's missing when he never used to, the bread and butter pots, the frame balls, the colours off the spots. He doesn't need to modify his game, he needs to get his game back.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

yes his long game is gone but mark was more than a potter he wasent top notch breakbuilder but he was such a great potter it did not matter that much but williams had a very clever game and he knew how to be a spoiler without being negative.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Tubberlad

You're right sonny, Mark did have a very strong safety game. He is the greatest single ball potter of all-time, but no matter how strong his shot-to-nothing game was, it wouldn't have worked without a safety game to back it up.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

Whenever you see a two cushion escape clip off the reds back to baulk the commentators always mention Cliff Thorburn. As far as I'm concerned Williams made that shot his own. That's just one example but him and Selby are two of the best safety players I've ever seen and that includes Steve Davis and John Higgins.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

The Shot Mark Made his own was the Red in to the pack and screw back to balk for safety he opened the pack up and left it safe as houses.

another shot was a atempted pot that looked reckless as he careered in to the pack but he knew it would hit the pack in a way where it hit the back cushing and went back up the table for safety.its a clever way to play safe and if you his oponement sitting in youre seat you think great ill have a chance come to the table stuck on balk cush or behind balk colours.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Casey

So seifer are you now admitting that Williams is a great tactician or do you still think he was just a long potter.

His game is unique, nothing like a Hendry, Higgins or O'sullivan. One of the best tacticians of the modern game, his long game is still there so if he can gain a bit of confidence he could get back to winning tournaments.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

I'm afraid that his tournament winning days are probably at an end. His consistency isn't there these days. He'll never get back to where he was. It hurts me to say it but that's the truth of the matter. His best chance for a 3rd world title came in 2006. He lost an all time classic to O'Sullivan 13-11 in the quarter-finals. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that he would've beaten Dott and Ebdon to lift the title but alas, the genius upped it when it counted and duely cracked in the next match.

I am firmly a Selby supporter now. It was very sweet being a Williams fan which for the first time in my life I switched from Jimmy White back in 1997/98, but times have moved on and Williams is but a mere shadow of his former self. As stated above, it's not the shots he plays, his game needs no modification but it's the EASY shots he misses that he never used to do.

Believe me, no one would be happier than me to see him lift another title but I just can't see it happening, especially after what happened at the Grand Prix. Semi-final, total clearance 140+ break in frame 1 and then completely went to pot and continued to make error after error. The man who once seemed to waltz through the rounds never showing any signs of pressure, now looks to be under it big time when he gets himself into a good position.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

i think he has a tournament in him sonny just look at Joe Swail reaching finals and Dominic Dale winning one.

never say never he has made a semi this season.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

Well from the angle that occasionally you get a dare I say it "freak" winner like Jimmy White in the Welsh a few years back then yes, of course he can win another tournament but it'll take a kindly draw. Mind you, if he wins a tournament in style I will gladly eat my words.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:Well from the angle that occasionally you get a dare I say it "freak" winner like Jimmy White in the Welsh a few years back then yes, of course he can win another tournament but it'll take a kindly draw. Mind you, if he wins a tournament in style I will gladly eat my words.


if mark can sneak a "freak" win who knows he might get some confidence from that.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Roland

Well, if we start having 15+ ranking tournaments in a season from next year then that will give him more chance to get back where he belongs. And Selby too for that matter.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby GrumpyMrDavros

That Cue Arm! wrote:Interesting read on the BBC site about the welsh potting machine

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/snooker/8386359.stm


Yeah thanks for the link which proves snooker - if not a sport per se - is still something that requires a high degree of self discipline .

I genuinely think if Williams dedicated himself to the sport he'd have dominated the decade the same as Davis dominated the 80s and Hendry the 90s . As it stands he's an underachiever IMHO

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby The Cueist

Mark was good when he was winning and he takes his losses well in a weaker era,I still think he could make a strong comeback in the next few seasons.

He is still there and thereabouts,One good tournament would resrore this greatly talented players confidence.

He still has a cool head and a lot of talent and ability.

Re: Mark Williams: Could we have expected more?

Postby Wildey

you never lose the ability but sometimes its misplaced.

i think he has tournaments in him .he reached his first semi for 3 years this season so things are slowly improving for him.