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Journeymen...

Postby Tubberlad

Looking through the list of final qualifying round games, it's a little bit disheartening in my opinion to see a plethora of players who are either has beens or never will be's. As has been pointed out already, it 'read's like a who's who of first round crucible exits over ther last ten years'. Yes, the journeymen have done it again. They'll be the men at Sheffield rather than the promising youngsters, and most of them will, invariably, fall at the first. Again.

What can we do about it? Well, absolutely nothing. These men will have done exactly what was asked of them, and will have earned their starting positions. No complaints. They've got to get beaten, and that hasn't happened.

I certainly had high hopes for young Jack Lisowski against Steve Davis. It's perhaps a little unfair to label a great like Steve as a journeyman, but for almost twenty years now, that's exactly what he has been. He has played at Sheffield over an incredible five decades, and I'd much prefer to see young blood like Lisowski at the Crucible, but Steve did what he had to do, and impressively by the look of it.

So, how exactly do these so called journeymen keep doing the business at qualifying level, while doing little or nothing for 90% of their venue matches? Well, snooker is a game where experience and temprament can count for an awful lot more than out and out talent. See Judd Trump for a man who really struggled against these guys. They are used to the less glamorous surroundings, they seem to know how to grind young players down. In short, they know how to survive at this level.

So, some of us will have to grin and bare it. Fergal O'Brien, Barry Pinches, Dominic Dale, Dave Harold, Jamie Burnett, Andy Hicks, Marcus Campbell & Rory McLeod may never pick up the Joe Davis trophy, but you don't see them dropping off tour either, do you? They are good at what they do. The likes of Jack Lisowski, Jamie Jones & Michael White will no doubt have their day, but it may be a little bit more frustrating a journey than what they had anticipated.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Bourne

Easy to take it out of context though, those names you mentioned all had final frame deciders which can easily go either way and then you're talking about Harold/Hamilton/Davis being relpaced by a few under-25s ... very small margins this sport.

Edit Michael White wasn't a final framer but was 7-7 at one point so hardly disgraced. Baird is another one in a final framer but just not to be.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby GJ

tubbs

selty ahowed with grit and fight no situation is a lost cause

players like white and joens need to develop some sort of safety game because thye are just potters and in the enD harold and hamilton were too storng overall

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Monique

It's so easy to forget that this is Jack's FIRST season. He's done very well. Yes experience was telling in the end. But it took Steve Davis - the man who knocked out Higgins a year ago - to do it.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Tubberlad

Bourne wrote:Easy to take it out of context though, those names you mentioned all had final frame deciders which can easily go either way and then you're talking about Harold/Hamilton/Davis being relpaced by a few under-25s ... very small margins this sport.

Edit Michael White wasn't a final framer but was 7-7 at one point so hardly disgraced. Baird is another one in a final framer but just not to be.

I'm not saying the young lads did badly, or were destroyed by the 'journeymen'. They ultimately did win, albeit it unspectacularly. That's what they're good at.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Bourne

I think in these qualifiers over the long distances and the heightened pressure, experience really counts for a lot. There's only so far that fearless youth can take you, unless you've got an extremely special talent. We just have to be patient about finding that talent because there's no set rule we should have one or two every 'era' ...

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Tubberlad

Bourne wrote:I think in these qualifiers over the long distances and the heightened pressure, experience really counts for a lot. There's only so far that fearless youth can take you, unless you've got an extremely special talent. We just have to be patient about finding that talent because there's no set rule we should have one or two every 'era' ...

Here here <ok>

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Tubberlad

Monique wrote:It's so easy to forget that this is Jack's FIRST season. He's done very well. Yes experience was telling in the end. But it took Steve Davis - the man who knocked out Higgins a year ago - to do it.

I'm not denying it. I like the guy and I think he could be a fantastic young player... his opening season has been a success.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Bourne

Jack still has PTC finals so it'll be interesting to see how he's picked himself up from this defeat, I get the impression from what i've seen of him so far that he'll take it in a positive way <ok>

Re: Journeymen...

Postby SnookerFan

I don't really see this as a problem. There are some young players coming up, and the ultimate test is whether they win matches. The youngsters have to be able to win to qualify. What are the old guys supposed to do, let the youngsters win? It's all well and good saying; "I want to see young players come through, not oldies that have no chance of being World Champion." But if the youngies aren't winning matches, it's not anybody elses fault. Regardless of age, or how far they get at the venue, the 16 aren't who qualified awarded wildcards. They have qualified, so have earned the right to be there.

Lisowski is a fantastic young talent, which is demonstrated in the fact that people are surprised he didn't qualify for the tournament. Let's not get carried away that he gave Higgins a good match in a best of seven in Newport, he's still very inexperienced. Hopefully, this match with Davis, added to his other qualfication matches, PTC finals weekend and match with John Higgins will have taught him plenty. Hopefully, next season he'll come back better and qualify for more tournaments, and start having some decent runs at venues.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Tubberlad

I think people are missing the point with my article. I never said at any stage that it was a 'problem'. I'm just pointing out how hard it is to displace these men and how they are very good at surviving on tour. Many of them have done little of note, yet have never really been threatened by falling off tour either...

Re: Journeymen...

Postby wheelsofsteel

don't know where this journeymen word came in to play, but you can have young and old players who haven't progressed in snooker. A 22 year old having been at 78 in the world for three years is no less a plodder as someone who has had 10 seasons there.

They might both have found their level, but the younger man will get the benefit of the doubt because he has 'potential' - that same potential that people talk about with Matthew Stevens

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Bourne

We deserve to give them time to prove that potential though, because all players are different in how much time they take to adapt to the tour and having to play in all these different countries, particularly now with a fuller tour and a more global feel to the sport.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Tubberlad

wheelsofsteel wrote:don't know where this journeymen word came in to play, but you can have young and old players who haven't progressed in snooker. A 22 year old having been at 78 in the world for three years is no less a plodder as someone who has had 10 seasons there.

They might both have found their level, but the younger man will get the benefit of the doubt because he has 'potential' - that same potential that people talk about with Matthew Stevens

I agree with that, but in the case of Lisowski, he's already inside the top fifty after his rookie season, which is impressive.

I'm nt taking away from Davis' win... he did what he had to do, he's in the next round and that's all that matters.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Roland

It's perhaps a little unfair to label a great like Steve as a journeyman

rofl

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Wildey

Tubberlad wrote:I think people are missing the point with my article. I never said at any stage that it was a 'problem'. I'm just pointing out how hard it is to displace these men and how they are very good at surviving on tour. Many of them have done little of note, yet have never really been threatened by falling off tour either...

i see it as a big problem players younger players are there but they not coming through as fast as they used to this year we could easily have 7 players over 40 at the crucible its nobody's fault and theres nothing that can be done about it.

its up to these young players to displace them.

the avarage age at the last qualifying round is a tad under 35 if Bond,Drago and White got through that Avarage would be pushing 40.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby randam05

I think this is all bull. Everyone knows my opinion on old and young players :redneck:

They will get there time, and either become top of the range players or become journeymen themselves.

Infact I disagree with everything said, these players make up the tour. A lot of them have knocked out favourite regularly and won tournaments themselves. Lets just chuck them all off and replace by boring characterless young talents that when the pressure comes on play awful.

No one will agree with me so im not going to bother banging on and everyone knows I would much prefer to watch fergal, bond, hamilton, dale, swail, greene, davis, doherty, ebdon.

Snookerfans post was very respectable and well said <ok>

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Bourne

You'd have a point if the players you mentioned actually weren't characterless, but Greene/Hamilton/Bond ...?

Re: Journeymen...

Postby randam05

And by the way this is coming from a young audience, my younger brother and sister are also very similar in their views. Im not saying all teenagers and younger viewers will think the same. But my family certainly agree. Infact my slightly younger brother, not such an avid fan of snooker strongly dislikes younger players.

So im not sure younger players winning is better for the game. :/

Re: Journeymen...

Postby SnookerFan

randam05 wrote:Snookerfans post was very respectable and well said <ok>


Now, there's a guy who talks some sense. <ok>

Re: Journeymen...

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

It's not age that's the problem it's the lenght of time they've been around. Theres an imbalance between the amount of players that turned pro in the early 90's that are still hanging around and the lack of players that are 21 or under. For all the talk of Snookers depth the World Championship will probably have 3 or 4 players who have next to no chance of going further. For a tournament with only 32 players thats a lot.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Tubberlad

randam05 wrote:And by the way this is coming from a young audience, my younger brother and sister are also very similar in their views. Im not saying all teenagers and younger viewers will think the same. But my family certainly agree. Infact my slightly younger brother, not such an avid fan of snooker strongly dislikes younger players.

So im not sure younger players winning is better for the game. :/

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it's better for the game if younger players are winning. I couldn't give a rubbish about characters, I judge players on what they play like.

Younger players are the future, journeymen consist of has beens and never were to begin with's. I think it's far more positive to see exciting young players coming through than people who have contributed fuckall to the Crucible but first and second round exits.

And anyway, I don't think the majority of them are special characters anyway.

I'm not criticising journeymen because they're very, very good at what they do, and it's up to the youth to get through themselves. I'd just prefer to see them doing that.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby randam05

Well if the youngsters arent good enough to beat these so called 'journeymen' then they arent good enough to be at the crucible obviously. Plus, there time will come wont it? whats the hurry? Let the journeymen enjoy their last few years, especially the ones like hamilton and swail who dont have long left but still enjoy and pull out the results, like swail did at the german masters beating allen and murphy while at their peak.

Maybe greene was a push :redneck: but i enjoy watching him, and bond well I really enjoy watching him. His character is his lazy looking face and approach to the game. I find him good to watch <ok> like I do hamilton.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Bourne

"His character is his lazy looking face"

Ah, well that's convinced me then ... :?

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Wildey

this thread is more to do with criticising the young players not the journeymen.

i think to some degree they not learning the fundamentals of the game fast enough and just wanting to pot balls after balls but that doesn't prepare you for tough match-players.

ive said for ages snooker more than any other sport favours experience over youth i just feel players are slower than ever learning how to be a all round player.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Witz78

Wild wrote:
Tubberlad wrote:I think people are missing the point with my article. I never said at any stage that it was a 'problem'. I'm just pointing out how hard it is to displace these men and how they are very good at surviving on tour. Many of them have done little of note, yet have never really been threatened by falling off tour either...

i see it as a big problem players younger players are there but they not coming through as fast as they used to this year we could easily have 7 players over 40 at the crucible its nobody's fault and theres nothing that can be done about it.

its up to these young players to displace them.

the avarage age at the last qualifying round is a tad under 35 if Bond,Drago and White got through that Avarage would be pushing 40.


Thats exactly why the fact Trumps been at this level for 2 seasons when a lot of these other 17-32 ranked players are old enough to be his dad (well, apart from you know who :limp: ) shows that talk of Trump being washed up and having missed the boat in terms of making an impact are nonsense.

Sure he has to kick on now, hes found his feet but needs to take the next step up the ladder which his excellent if unspectacular season to date will allow him to do after the next rankings cut off.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby SnookerFan

Witz78 wrote:
Thats exactly why the fact Trumps been at this level for 2 seasons when a lot of these other 17-32 ranked players are old enough to be his dad (well, apart from you know who :limp: ) shows that talk of Trump being washed up and having missed the boat in terms of making an impact are nonsense.

Sure he has to kick on now, hes found his feet but needs to take the next step up the ladder which his excellent if unspectacular season to date will allow him to do after the next rankings cut off.


I don't think anybody thinks Trump is washed up. It's just that we don't think that he's the All Time Great at this stage of his career, that you seem to think he already is. I, for one, would like to see him start qualifying regularly, and start getting beyond the first couple of rounds when he does.

Yes, he is young, and he might still do that. But, you seem to be under the impression that unless somebody pretends he's had a Hall of Fame career already, then they're a hater.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Witz78

SnookerFan wrote:
Witz78 wrote:
Thats exactly why the fact Trumps been at this level for 2 seasons when a lot of these other 17-32 ranked players are old enough to be his dad (well, apart from you know who :limp: ) shows that talk of Trump being washed up and having missed the boat in terms of making an impact are nonsense.

Sure he has to kick on now, hes found his feet but needs to take the next step up the ladder which his excellent if unspectacular season to date will allow him to do after the next rankings cut off.


I don't think anybody thinks Trump is washed up. It's just that we don't think that he's the All Time Great at this stage of his career, that you seem to think he already is. I, for one, would like to see him start qualifying regularly, and start getting beyond the first couple of rounds when he does.

Yes, he is young, and he might still do that. But, you seem to be under the impression that unless somebody pretends he's had a Hall of Fame career already, then they're a hater.


He has been qualifying regularly, bar the Welsh Open hes qualified for every other event.

I agree its time he started making his mark at the venues though and reaching the latter stages to cement his credentials as the Boy Wonder :afro:

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Wildey

question ?

and for buck sakes dont jump down my throat .

at what age does a player move from a 21 year old wanderkid to being a journeyman.

what if at the age of 25 or 26 hes stil not reached another quarter when you considering at that time he would have 10 years experience.

nobody can carry on for ever being that wander kid at some stage he will have to show some proof.

Re: Journeymen...

Postby Bourne

To call someone under the age of 25, who is performing consistently well, in what is no longer a young man's sport, a journeyman is beyond just plain ignorant :huh2: