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Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby SnookerFan » 27 Jan 2023 Read

CaldoTheKid wrote:https://metro.co.uk/2023/01/26/jack-lisowski-wants-shot-clock-brought-in-to-combat-gamesmanship-he-faces-18169646/


Terrible idea.

Reeks of Neil Robertson's "I want the World Championship to be moved from The Crucible". Trying to changes the rules just to combat an area they struggle with.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby McManusFan » 27 Jan 2023 Read

SnookerFan wrote:
CaldoTheKid wrote:https://metro.co.uk/2023/01/26/jack-lisowski-wants-shot-clock-brought-in-to-combat-gamesmanship-he-faces-18169646/


Terrible idea.

Reeks of Neil Robertson's "I want the World Championship to be moved from The Crucible". Trying to changes the rules just to combat an area they struggle with.


I agree. I'm a bit disappointed in Jack there. If he's talking about the Mark Allen match, yes he played a bit slower than normal, and very negatively. But it isn't as if he was taking minutes on every shot.

If he can't deal with those sort of tactics mentally, then that's very much his problem, not snooker's.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby Iranu » 27 Jan 2023 Read

D4P wrote:Either you think players should be allowed to take 6 minutes to play a shot, or you essentially think there should be some kind of shot clock.

There’s a third option: referees being more assertive in warning players for slow play.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby D4P » 27 Jan 2023 Read

Iranu wrote:
D4P wrote:Either you think players should be allowed to take 6 minutes to play a shot, or you essentially think there should be some kind of shot clock.

There’s a third option: referees being more assertive in warning players for slow play.


...which would involve referees keeping a shot clock.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby McManusFan » 27 Jan 2023 Read

D4P wrote:
Iranu wrote:
D4P wrote:Either you think players should be allowed to take 6 minutes to play a shot, or you essentially think there should be some kind of shot clock.

There’s a third option: referees being more assertive in warning players for slow play.


...which would involve referees keeping a shot clock.


No it wouldn't.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby D4P » 27 Jan 2023 Read

McManusFan wrote:
D4P wrote:
Iranu wrote:
D4P wrote:Either you think players should be allowed to take 6 minutes to play a shot, or you essentially think there should be some kind of shot clock.

There’s a third option: referees being more assertive in warning players for slow play.


...which would involve referees keeping a shot clock.


No it wouldn't.


How can you measure "slow play" without keeping track of time...? Or rather, why would you bother trying to measure slow play without at least incorporating time...?
Last edited by D4P on 27 Jan 2023, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby Iranu » 27 Jan 2023 Read

D4P wrote:
Iranu wrote:
D4P wrote:Either you think players should be allowed to take 6 minutes to play a shot, or you essentially think there should be some kind of shot clock.

There’s a third option: referees being more assertive in warning players for slow play.


...which would involve referees keeping a shot clock.

... no it wouldn’t.

Selby taking 6 minutes on one shot has nothing to do with AST. It required the ref to step up in that moment only. Not after 20 seconds but a minute or two.

Allen slowed down against Jack but he wasn’t actually SLOW on average. He was 25 seconds a shot.

The bigger issue was his negative play which put colours on cushions and kept the reds tightly bunched. That has nothing to do with AST other than reducing the number of free flowing breaks.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby D4P » 27 Jan 2023 Read

Iranu wrote:Selby taking 6 minutes on one shot has nothing to do with AST. It required the ref to step up in that moment only.


But how would a ref know that "a minute or two" had passed without keeping time? Why rely on refs to guess how much time has passed rather than actually measuring time with a clock?

For one thing, having an actual clock is a lot more "fair" because refs are likely to give more leeway to top players than to numpties...

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby Iranu » 27 Jan 2023 Read

D4P wrote:
Iranu wrote:Selby taking 6 minutes on one shot has nothing to do with AST. It required the ref to step up in that moment only.


But how would a ref know that "a minute or two" had passed without keeping time? Why rely on refs to guess how much time has passed rather than actually measuring time with a clock?

For one thing, having an actual clock is a lot more "fair" because refs are likely to give more leeway to top players than to numpties...

Keeping an eye on the time isn’t the same as using a shot clock ffs. Also, a ref is gonna know when a shot’s dragging on a bit without having to use a stopwatch.

My point is that it’s not ABOUT the specific time it’s taken.

There are instances where taking a couple of minutes is legitimate and instances where it’s not. If you think it’s one size fits all then you don’t understand snooker.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby chengdufan » 27 Jan 2023 Read

It isn't guessing tbough. It's using professional judgement as to whether it's reasonable to take the time that is being taken. If the shot on is obvious, it should not take long. If there are many, or no, options, it will take a bit longer. The ref needs to have enough knowledge of the game to make a determination. It is not about a set number of seconds per shot

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby SnookerFan » 27 Jan 2023 Read

The thing is, shot clocks may speed up the AST, and lessen the amount of time taken on a shot. But it doesn't necessarily encourage good play or exciting matches.

If a player is playing outside of their natural speed, they're more likely to mess shots up, or make the balls go awkward. It doesn't really reduce the chances of scrappy frames.

Why would you want to watch people running around like headless chickens in a game of skill like snooker?

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby D4P » 27 Jan 2023 Read

I would put a clock on the screen that players can look at that shows the frame score. Each player would have 2 minutes to play a shot, after which they would be assessed a 4-point foul and put back on the clock for 1 minute, after which they would be assessed an 8-point foul. There would be no annoying "countdown" sound like there is at the Shootout.

There's no good reason to take more than 2 minutes to play a shot. You will have figured out everything you need to figure out in the first 2 minutes, and extra thinking is just a waste of everyone's time that also punishes the player who is in their seat who successfully put their opponent in a difficult position but has to sit around and wait.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby McManusFan » 27 Jan 2023 Read

D4P wrote:I would put a clock on the screen that players can look at that shows the frame score. Each player would have 2 minutes to play a shot, after which they would be assessed a 4-point foul and put back on the clock for 1 minute, after which they would be assessed an 8-point foul. There would be no annoying "countdown" sound like there is at the Shootout.

There's no good reason to take more than 2 minutes to play a shot. You will have figured out everything you need to figure out in the first 2 minutes, and extra thinking is just a waste of everyone's time that also punishes the player who is in their seat who successfully put their opponent in a difficult position but has to sit around and wait.


Completely disagree. Some safety shots can take a long time to work out. Limiting the shot time arbitrarily like this will ruin the drama of those long late night frames where it comes down to the colours. Relying on referees to use their professional judgement to look out for gamesmanship is a much more elegant solution.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby Johnny Bravo » 27 Jan 2023 Read

D4P wrote:I would put a clock on the screen that players can look at that shows the frame score. Each player would have 2 minutes to play a shot, after which they would be assessed a 4-point foul and put back on the clock for 1 minute, after which they would be assessed an 8-point foul. There would be no annoying "countdown" sound like there is at the Shootout.

There's no good reason to take more than 2 minutes to play a shot. You will have figured out everything you need to figure out in the first 2 minutes, and extra thinking is just a waste of everyone's time that also punishes the player who is in their seat who successfully put their opponent in a difficult position but has to sit around and wait.

20 seconds is more than enough for a shot. In the case a tricky situation arises, players should be allowed 1 or 2 extensions per game, with an extra 30 seconds.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby Pink Ball » 27 Jan 2023 Read

Don't bring in a shot clock. I hate them. bucking hate them.

But referees should keep an eye out for someone being deliberately slow. Problem is, how many will have the balls?

If Alan Chamberlain didn't warn Peter Ebdon against Ronnie O'Sullivan in 2005, who's going to get a warning?

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby Johnny Bravo » 27 Jan 2023 Read

Pink Ball wrote:Don't bring in a shot clock. I hate them. bucking hate them.

But referees should keep an eye out for someone being deliberately slow. Problem is, how many will have the balls?

If Alan Chamberlain didn't warn Peter Ebdon against Ronnie O'Sullivan in 2005, who's going to get a warning?

And there inlies the problem, refs don't have the guts to warn top players, therefore a shot clock is needed.

Also, you must stop looking at things from your perspective, that of a purist, and look at it instead from the perspective of the paying public and audience, they are the ones that keep the game alive. Most don't like slow play, especially potential new audience.
Slow play is one of the reasons pool was dying at one stage, and that's why they installed a shot clock in many events.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby SteveJJ » 27 Jan 2023 Read

If players are actually slowing down to frustrate Jack then don't they run the risk of knocking themselves out of their own rhythm?

It all seems to me the whingeing of someone who wants a rule change in some events because he can't seem to win normally and wants the cards stacked more in his favour. For all the comments about how much of a help Ebdon will be for Jack in terms of mindset, this outburst to the press looks like that of a weak mentality.

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby SnookerEd25 » 27 Jan 2023 Read

D4P wrote:Either you think players should be allowed to take 6 minutes to play a shot, or you essentially think there should be some kind of shot clock.


Not really, that’s like saying ‘either you support the death penalty, or you think murder should be legalised’

Re: Lisowski wants shot clock brought in to combat ‘gamesman

Postby SnookerEd25 » 27 Jan 2023 Read

Pink Ball wrote:Don't bring in a shot clock. I hate them. bucking hate them.

But referees should keep an eye out for someone being deliberately slow. Problem is, how many will have the balls?

If Alan Chamberlain didn't warn Peter Ebdon against Ronnie O'Sullivan in 2005, who's going to get a warning?


Two high-profile players this week have claimed the sport is dying on it’s arsse. A shot-clock would be the final nail in the coffin

(though I must say I like ESH’s suggestion above :lol: )
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