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Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby vodkadiet1

badtemperedcyril wrote:I'm talking pre-Crucible AND pre-modern era...

Many are on wikipedia and cuetracker website but many are not. I have researched some of the missing ones in old snooker magazines and newspapers, if anyone's interested?


Absolutely. They were the days of real snooker. Best of 145 frames was the best way to decide a winner.

I think The World Championship format should be scrapped anyway. I would have only 8 players involved and they are decided by the rankings, with no qualifying. Your qualifying is via the tournaments beforehand where you get your ranking.

Matches could be spread out over a month eliminating fatigue form the equation. Matches could be best 49 for quarters, best of 59 for semis, and best of 69 for the final.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby vodkadiet1

badtemperedcyril wrote:Between 1946 and 49 the final was best of 145 spread over 24 sessions.


Frames took longer in those days. Conditions have been dumbed over the years. Pockets are like buckets, balls are much lighter, and cloths are very thin.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

This is an example of my research...

1947 World Professional Snooker Championship
FINAL

13th – 18th, 20th – 25th October, 1947
Leicester Square Hall, London

WALTER DONALDSON (Scotland) 82-63 FRED DAVIS (England)

Session 1 42-88; 65-49; 77-29; 23-91(59); 65-51; 70-21. Donaldson 4-2
Session 2 26-72; 62-43; 13-113(53); 66-60(56); 40-86; 85-36. Donaldson 7-5
Session 3 88(52)-31; 84-22; 33-50; 71-32; 49-71; 65-35. Donaldson 11-7
Session 4 63-65; 80-36; 73-56; 32-86; 87(56)-48; 34-96. Donaldson 14-10
Session 5 73-44; 95(43)-14; 64-50; 89-31; 79-23; 28-63. Donaldson 19-11
Session 6 70-38; 59-40; 30-55; 62-47; 28-82(55); 38-86. Donaldson 22-14
Session 7 80-20; 52-82; 83-43; 13-144(73); 65-36; 69-24. Donaldson 26-16
Session 8 99(97)-24; 100-24; 112(56)-5; 78(70)-45; 47-77(52); 62-61. Donaldson 31-17
Session 9 65-53; 12-112(78); 84-33; 77-24; 83-37; 25-94. Donaldson 35-19
Session 10 31-84; 50-71; 56-82; 37-64; 22-89; 32-80. Donaldson 35-25
Session 11 85-18; 72-45; 21-88; 60-46; 94-38; 70-39. Donaldson 40-26
Session 12 72-31; 90-11; 87(54)-28; 46-70; 29-79; 74-51. Donaldson 44-28
Session 13 63-41; 116-8; 96-24; 8-111(103); 65-59; 68-61. Donaldson 49-29
Session 14 16-106; 26-85; 19-119(107); 56-69; 89-42; 97(82)-12. Donaldson 51-33
Session 15 53-44; 0-139(135); 97(61)-32; 51-63; 67-37; 39-96(48). Donaldson 54-36
Session 16 57-36; 90(58)-28; 32-75(40); 103(65)-6; 65-73; 22-103(83). Donaldson 57-39
Session 17 40-67; 67-55; 30-94(62); 72-59; 82(62)-21; 20-86. Donaldson 60-42
Session 18 95-51; 119(81)-31; 51-93; 14-94; 55-64; 12-120(81). Donaldson 62-46
Session 19 51-56; 111(85)-20; 95-31; 88-23; 91-6; 86-36. Donaldson 67-47
Session 20 28-80; 57-55; 73-53; 24-86; 65-55; 101(58)-26. Donaldson 71-49
Session 21 68-66; *95-48; 77-38; 66-67; 68-23; 76-50. Donaldson 76-50
Session 22 72-53; 74-40; 44-82; 43-79; 4-114; 31-78. Donaldson 78-54
Session 23 55-65; 18-92; 77(63)-47; 23-96; 26-75; 93-21. Donaldson 80-58
Session 24 18-93(83); 26-84; 6-112(91); 46-82(73); 104(72)-33; 96-20. Donaldson 82-63

*Donaldson reached a winning lead at 73-49 in the 122nd frame.

Note. This is not an official scoresheet. It is constructed from newspaper reports, hence not all breaks over 40 are shown.

Radio broadcasts commentary by Raymond Glendening.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby lhpirnie

Yes, people often overlook that snooker had a history before the Crucible, and hopefully will have one after. Obviously the conditions have changed enormously, so the high-breaks weren't there. There were 3 centuries in the 145 frames, which is a far better average than the whole of the 1977 World Championship, and also 1985 (14 centuries in 797 frames) which everyone raves about (the 1985 final didn't have any centuries). Perhaps some of the great players of the past weren't as bad as they are portrayed.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

I think the professionals standard in the period immediately post war and up to the late 50’s was high. Joe made 6 centuries in the 1946 final. The fact that Fred reached the semifinals at the Crucible in 78 when 25 years past his prime also says much for the standard of the two eras. The thing to remember also with Fred and Donaldson is that safety was the key word. Fred discovered after this 1947 defeat, that the only way to beat Donaldson was to play him at his own game by playing hard safety and taking no risks. That way he forced Donaldson into going for half chances to create openings. Fred in general didn’t need so many chances himself because he exploited his scoring opportunities more heavily. The downside to Fred’s strategy was that 6-frame sessions frequently lasted over 3 hours!

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby SnookerEd25

Muller wrote:I would love to see more of these actually. Interesting to see the relatively high number of 60/70/80 breaks.



Yes, I know the general opinion is that anyone pre-90s was rubbish because they rarely hit centuries (whereas even the lowest ranked players bang them out with regularity these days) but given the conditions before the super-fine cloths were introduced, (heavier cloths, heavier balls, 'dead' cushions, no facility to regulate table temperature/ humidity etc) I think 50+ breaks then were just as impressive as centuries are today.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby Johnny Bravo

vodkadiet1 wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:Between 1946 and 49 the final was best of 145 spread over 24 sessions.


Frames took longer in those days. Conditions have been dumbed over the years. Pockets are like buckets, balls are much lighter, and cloths are very thin.

Pockets are way tighter in the modern era, wtf are you on about ?!? :? :|

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby lhpirnie

Muller wrote:Steve Davis has suggested the pockets are about the same, so whatever I would not say they are way tighter.

In any event, even if it were true, it would be more than cancelled out by the overall improvement in conditions.

Yes table conditions were a little better this year, but the standards are usually terrible anyway in the Crucible. There were a few sessions where the cloth was much too heavy, and of course there were many kicks in the early days (caused by the cleaning procedure). They may have benefited from a humidity cloth during August, as used in some countries. The cloth also has major importance as to how the pockets play, so they will vary according to the age of the cloth.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Muller wrote:Steve Davis has suggested the pockets are about the same, so whatever I would not say they are way tighter.

In any event, even if it were true, it would be more than cancelled out by the overall improvement in conditions.
Also, Steve would’ve been talking about the comparison between today and the 80’s, not the 40’s & 50’s tables. Going back even earlier, say, to the Pre-war table at Thurston’s, those pockets were without doubt the most strict. No under cutting at the pocket openings whatsoever. This was due to the older billiard players not wanting to concede anything to the younger chaps who relied more heavily on hazards instead of canon play.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Muller wrote:I would love to see more of these actually. Interesting to see the relatively high number of 60/70/80 breaks.

Do you have any from the 1970 WC, a gap on Cuetracker?
I have the 1970 final which saw Reardon survive a remarkable comeback by Pulman. Reardon led 27-14 before Pulman recovered to trail only 33-32 before Reardon held his nerve and clinched it 37-33. I am on holiday at present but I’ll post in a few days. The Nov 1970 event in Australia is more difficult but quite a few sources are available. I’m working on them.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby Muller

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Muller wrote:Steve Davis has suggested the pockets are about the same, so whatever I would not say they are way tighter.

In any event, even if it were true, it would be more than cancelled out by the overall improvement in conditions.
Also, Steve would’ve been talking about the comparison between today and the 80’s, not the 40’s & 50’s tables. Going back even earlier, say, to the Pre-war table at Thurston’s, those pockets were without doubt the most strict. No under cutting at the pocket openings whatsoever. This was due to the older billiard players not wanting to concede anything to the younger chaps who relied more heavily on hazards instead of canon play.



Ah that is really interesting!

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby Muller

badtemperedcyril wrote:
Muller wrote:I would love to see more of these actually. Interesting to see the relatively high number of 60/70/80 breaks.

Do you have any from the 1970 WC, a gap on Cuetracker?
I have the 1970 final which saw Reardon survive a remarkable comeback by Pulman. Reardon led 27-14 before Pulman recovered to trail only 33-32 before Reardon held his nerve and clinched it 37-33. I am on holiday at present but I’ll post in a few days. The Nov 1970 event in Australia is more difficult but quite a few sources are available. I’m working on them.


As I said really looking forward to seeing this. Just wondering what your sources are? I know you mentioned newspaper reports but am guessing also Snooker Scene?

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Muller wrote:
badtemperedcyril wrote:
Muller wrote:I would love to see more of these actually. Interesting to see the relatively high number of 60/70/80 breaks.

Do you have any from the 1970 WC, a gap on Cuetracker?
I have the 1970 final which saw Reardon survive a remarkable comeback by Pulman. Reardon led 27-14 before Pulman recovered to trail only 33-32 before Reardon held his nerve and clinched it 37-33. I am on holiday at present but I’ll post in a few days. The Nov 1970 event in Australia is more difficult but quite a few sources are available. I’m working on them.


As I said really looking forward to seeing this. Just wondering what your sources are? I know you mentioned newspaper reports but am guessing also Snooker Scene?
Yes, Snooker Scene is excellent. Prior to that, the old Billiard Player and Billiards and Snooker were not always very good for covering professional events, primarily because they were owned by the Billiards Association, who were always at odds with the professionals. When the professionals staged their own Championships in the 50's, the World Professional Matchplay, the Billiard Player barely recognised it at all.

I searched the 1970 World Championship on the British Newspaper Archive by entering the date range and searching the key words "snooker reardon pulman". Unfortunately, I couldn't quite find every single frame on the last day.
Last edited by badtemperedcyril on 13 Sep 2020, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

1970 PLAYER’S NO.6 WORLD PROFESSIONAL SNOOKER CHAMPIONSHIP
FINAL
Victoria Hall, London
6th - 11th April, 1970

RAY REARDON (Stoke) beat JOHN PULMAN (Bromley) 37-33

Frame scores:
Session 1. 82(63)-42, 57-40, 14-68(40), 72(66)-12, 78(42)-40, 31-70. Reardon 4-2
Session 2. 66-26, 61(37)-60, 78(57)-48, 53(35)-64, 69-44, 16-118(52,43). Reardon 8-4
Session 3. 59-32, 1-102(41,39), 37(32)-80(48), 81(33)-22, 73(32)-56(36), 47(30)-89(47,35). Reardon 12-6
Session 4. 59-72, 79-65(65), 70(30)-64(30), 52-71, 8-92(84), 26-95(38). Reardon 14-10
Session 5. 114(33,57)-9, 73(73)-24, 78(46)-47, 56-36, 40-90(54), 31-72. Reardon 18-12
Session 6. 77(50)-45, 55(50)-81(44), 54-29, 70(35)-44, 7-116(37,49), 115(94)-19. Reardon 22-14
Session 7. 85(49)23, 68-38, 53-52, 62(37)-38, 69-27, 32-81(45). Reardon 27-15
Session 8. 56-63(30), 62-47, 49-69(33), 87(53)-36, 39-70(30), 8-118(52,39). Reardon 29-19
Session 9. 2-70(51), 44-70(33), nrs, 46-64, 9-64(31), 104(85)-33. Reardon 30-24
Session 10. 33-86(49), 24-81(81), 73-7, 90(50)-15, 19-75(48), 38-99(35). Reardon 32-28
Session 11. 87(47,36)-53, 45-57, 67-17(32), 17-100, 41-64, 30-100(31). Reardon 34-32
Session 12. 31-69(62), 62(38)-30, (RR 40)-nrs, (RR 38)-nrs. Reardon 37-33

Prize money: Winner £1,125 Runner-up £975

Television: None.
Radio: Broadcasts on BBC Radio 2.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby Empire State Human

Good post, Cyril.

I checked a copy of Billiards & Snooker magazine, and yeah, it has the scores and breaks of almost all frames apart from the ones you couldn't find, so it looks like they're lost unless they're recorded in a newspaper somewhere.

I can scan and upload the match report if anyone's interested.

But I'll echo the request for the Nov 1970 event, if that's possible. It seems most of the existing scores for this tournament (at least the ones cited in Wikipedia) are from the Australian newspapers, e.g. Sydney Morning Herald, which have been scanned/uploaded to Google. But these are incomplete, indeed there are no scans of the Sydney MH for November, so until they are I don't know if there was any proper attempt to record the scores. And I don't have the Billiards & Snooker magazines for the end of the year, either, so I don't know if they were able to print them.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby Empire State Human

World Snooker magazine for Jan '71 does have some brief reports for the semi-finals/finals, but not the in-depth frame scores that Snooker Scene later would. I think Clive said the initial World Snooker mags were conceived as programmes for the Park Drive tournaments, and there are quite a few pages given to player profiles and an 'autographs' page at the back which meant they sold very well at the venues. I have a copy (acquired second-hand - I wasn't born at that point!) signed by Gary Owen and Rex Williams.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Empire State Human wrote:Good post, Cyril.

I checked a copy of Billiards & Snooker magazine, and yeah, it has the scores and breaks of almost all frames apart from the ones you couldn't find, so it looks like they're lost unless they're recorded in a newspaper somewhere.

I can scan and upload the match report if anyone's interested.

But I'll echo the request for the Nov 1970 event, if that's possible. It seems most of the existing scores for this tournament (at least the ones cited in Wikipedia) are from the Australian newspapers, e.g. Sydney Morning Herald, which have been scanned/uploaded to Google. But these are incomplete, indeed there are no scans of the Sydney MH for November, so until they are I don't know if there was any proper attempt to record the scores. And I don't have the Billiards & Snooker magazines for the end of the year, either, so I don't know if they were able to print them.

Now you've said that, I think for 1970, the B&S magazine was my main source of reference. I am trying to get every World Finals in the format above and for 90% of the pre-70's years, the newspaper archives was the only thing to go on. In actual fact, this was one of those periods when B&S did cover the professional game quite well (was Clive editor then?). Some of the 1960's challenge matches were reasonably covered as well, as they had been sanctioned by the BA&CC. After Clive and the B&S magazine parted company, only the amateur game is covered.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby badtemperedcyril

Empire State Human wrote:World Snooker magazine for Jan '71 does have some brief reports for the semi-finals/finals, but not the in-depth frame scores that Snooker Scene later would. I think Clive said the initial World Snooker mags were conceived as programmes for the Park Drive tournaments, and there are quite a few pages given to player profiles and an 'autographs' page at the back which meant they sold very well at the venues. I have a copy (acquired second-hand - I wasn't born at that point!) signed by Gary Owen and Rex Williams.
I've heard Clive say about the autograph pages before - great marketing! Those World Snooker magazines are very hard to get hold of now. I've only got one edition.

Re: Is anyone interested in old World Championship scores?

Postby Muller

badtemperedcyril wrote:By the way, one think I did find was, as was customary at that time, the three remaining "dead" frames were played after Reardon had reached his winning 37-33 lead. Final score: 38-35



...perhaps they should bring that back!