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Re: Betfred World Championship Final K.Wilson v R.O'Sullivan

Postby SnookerArcher

This time the Rocket was too powerful for the blackhole Selby to suck in! Sucker haha.
Mark Williams would have beat him if he had his form for the first half of his match with Ronnie, he was punishing Ronnie and unlike most players he wouldn't be bothered by Selby's negative play infact he also thrives on scrappy play.

Ergh I dread the prospect of him winning more triple crowns at all let alone WC, hope Trump and co step up their game to stall him as the class of 92 won't be here forever. (Even then since 2014 none of them stopped him in the Crucible barring last week's epic semi final.) He seems to have Robertson's number (Trump they've only met in one triple crown oddly and Trump won at least, perhaps that's Selby's weakness, power snooker, players who smash the ball are harder to contain, it's like fighting a kung fu master or some other fighter who is just too good in defence but if something or someone is too damn strong for them to hurt or lock up and too strong for them to block then it's over)... Anyhow got sick of seeing Selby as no.1 for 2010s, he's very bad for the sport with that negative play and now he's exposed himself to be a sore loser :emb: , he really hasn't redeeming qualities, on the table we knew that but now off it oh dear... What does puzzle me is how successful he is in the Masters, that was a younger Selby though perhaps he was more positive then so better short format suited vs what he's become since.... He beats Higgins and Williams in that department at least, Masters. (Though he's had a terrible recent record).... To put a little balance with my obvious distaste for him, he is very good at doubles he did a cracker in the 2017 Crucible from the top to the bottom of the table.

If going back to 2016-17 Selby was on a run but I think he exhausted himself farming tournaments in China, he was the man there for a while but his UK record has been drab since his last WC hasn't it? He definitely looked exhausted in 2017-18, which was Ronnie's season minus that anticlimatic Crucible run. (Plus the Masters was a letdown) Robertson blames his dip in form and falling out of the top 16 for a period on gaming addiction :td: , that match with Fu was ragged. Reiterating he's the last person I want to win a WC besides maybe Higgins, it's tough between the two hence me boycotting the 2017 final :-D , now Ronnie's clear of John by 2 I'll pick him over Selby though, I don't want Selby to be > Williams though he is by one Masters title.... As for the ranking tournament tally, that's horse :hankey: to compare a player's status. Davis definitely is > Higgins in prestige BUT because a lot of his tournaments weren't ranking tournaments when he won them, that bureaucratic nonsense has him at 28 ranking titles only. There are so many tournaments now as well and obviously they're all different in status, I don't count Trump's record 6 in a year as better than Selby's 5 or Ronnie's as they won the UK and begrudgingly Selby won the WC as well in his fab 5. Trump won some small tournament to get the 6th.... As much as I dislike Hendry and will argue to the end of time Ronnie is better, Hendry's 36 ranking titles is definitely superior to Ronnie's 37 in the sense that there were far fewer tournaments in his era and sucked them up like a whirlpool. Selby, Robo, Trump etc are actually in a good position to challenge those ranking title hauls in the international era they're in (Well not right now with covid), poor measure anyway I agree with Ronnie saying to measure them by their Majors as that's the only constant. Definitely not by prize money as that changes constantly, nor centuries as that's influenced by no. of tournaments and equipment rather than just skill. In total titles Davis is still king at 81, Ronnie's just reached 70 with his 6th WC, think Hendry has 74 (I know a lot of titles were challenge matches for Davis...)
Anyway it's up for debate, I would put Selby below Williams even with his +1 Masters but he's whether you like or loathe him the closest player to the class of 92 in success, though of the class of 2000 Robo and Murphy clearly are more talented. Especially Murphy.

What I really dislike is a lot of casuals only use world titles as the yardstick like it's the only tournament played all year lol, yeah obviousy Ronnie fans had 7years of misery but he was winning other tournaments, count them as bronze and silver medals compared to the WC gold (Or starters and dessert vs the main course) but Ronnie's UK and Masters haul is where he's well ahead of his peers, John you could argue he made 8 finals vs Ronnie's 6 and 4 v 5 world titles isn't a big gap but 2 Masters 3 UKs vs 7 for both is too big to ignore. Though yes a lot of those wins came with Steve Peters help, that's where Ronnie pulled away ever further while Higgins and Williams clearly are out of their prime besides Williams miracle run in 2018. I've not compared their career wins in their prime era the 2000s but they were comparable, since it's the class of 2000 and now Judd, Ding etc vying to become the best, all the more incredible how great Ronnie's longevity is, not always the apex predator, that changes hands but he's always up there if not at the top and finds ways to slip back there often!


It's not important but Trump, Selby and pretty much everyone else is far away from maximum records, wonder why? Is it cueball control? Ronnie obviously the best at it, Hendry must have been good to make 11 maximums, Higgins on 10, Bingham's lucky more than anything. Murphy's the Magician, Ding's comparable to Ronnie in cueball so fittingly is in the shortlist for most maxis. With how many tournaments players play now especially the likes of Trump and Selby it's damn obvious they are lacking a key component that Ronnie and Hendry have or had, maybe too with Hearn being a miser upping prize money but abolishing the juicy maximum prize pots it's affected them but then, maximums are more common than ever :chin: (Though Ronnie made more pre Hearn luckily else he'd be a bit poorer (He's made a lot of money from maxi prizes) and maybe even refused a lot of the maximums due to prize money disputes)

Here's my best to worst players tier list
T1: Rocket, Jimmy White
T2: Mark Williams, Ding, Liang Wenbo, Kyren, Barry Hawkins, Stephen Maguire
T3: Murphy, Robo (They were 4th for a long time Robo was arrogant when younger and Murphy damn establishment dog but he is a damn good player very positive), Bingham, Carter, Trump (Gone off him for his arrogance), Mark Allen
T4: Selby, John Higgins, Ebdon, Hendry (T1 as a pundit though)

Re: Betfred World Championship Final K.Wilson v R.O'Sullivan

Postby Johnny Bravo

SnookerArcher wrote:This time the Rocket was too powerful for the blackhole Selby to suck in! Sucker haha.
Mark Williams would have beat him if he had his form for the first half of his match with Ronnie, he was punishing Ronnie and unlike most players he wouldn't be bothered by Selby's negative play infact he also thrives on scrappy play.

Ergh I dread the prospect of him winning more triple crowns at all let alone WC, hope Trump and co step up their game to stall him as the class of 92 won't be here forever. (Even then since 2014 none of them stopped him in the Crucible barring last week's epic semi final.) He seems to have Robertson's number (Trump they've only met in one triple crown oddly and Trump won at least, perhaps that's Selby's weakness, power snooker, players who smash the ball are harder to contain, it's like fighting a kung fu master or some other fighter who is just too good in defence but if something or someone is too damn strong for them to hurt or lock up and too strong for them to block then it's over)... Anyhow got sick of seeing Selby as no.1 for 2010s, he's very bad for the sport with that negative play and now he's exposed himself to be a sore loser :emb: , he really hasn't redeeming qualities, on the table we knew that but now off it oh dear... What does puzzle me is how successful he is in the Masters, that was a younger Selby though perhaps he was more positive then so better short format suited vs what he's become since.... He beats Higgins and Williams in that department at least, Masters. (Though he's had a terrible recent record).... To put a little balance with my obvious distaste for him, he is very good at doubles he did a cracker in the 2017 Crucible from the top to the bottom of the table.

If going back to 2016-17 Selby was on a run but I think he exhausted himself farming tournaments in China, he was the man there for a while but his UK record has been drab since his last WC hasn't it? He definitely looked exhausted in 2017-18, which was Ronnie's season minus that anticlimatic Crucible run. (Plus the Masters was a letdown) Robertson blames his dip in form and falling out of the top 16 for a period on gaming addiction :td: , that match with Fu was ragged. Reiterating he's the last person I want to win a WC besides maybe Higgins, it's tough between the two hence me boycotting the 2017 final :-D , now Ronnie's clear of John by 2 I'll pick him over Selby though, I don't want Selby to be > Williams though he is by one Masters title.... As for the ranking tournament tally, that's horse :hankey: to compare a player's status. Davis definitely is > Higgins in prestige BUT because a lot of his tournaments weren't ranking tournaments when he won them, that bureaucratic nonsense has him at 28 ranking titles only. There are so many tournaments now as well and obviously they're all different in status, I don't count Trump's record 6 in a year as better than Selby's 5 or Ronnie's as they won the UK and begrudgingly Selby won the WC as well in his fab 5. Trump won some small tournament to get the 6th.... As much as I dislike Hendry and will argue to the end of time Ronnie is better, Hendry's 36 ranking titles is definitely superior to Ronnie's 37 in the sense that there were far fewer tournaments in his era and sucked them up like a whirlpool. Selby, Robo, Trump etc are actually in a good position to challenge those ranking title hauls in the international era they're in (Well not right now with covid), poor measure anyway I agree with Ronnie saying to measure them by their Majors as that's the only constant. Definitely not by prize money as that changes constantly, nor centuries as that's influenced by no. of tournaments and equipment rather than just skill. In total titles Davis is still king at 81, Ronnie's just reached 70 with his 6th WC, think Hendry has 74 (I know a lot of titles were challenge matches for Davis...)
Anyway it's up for debate, I would put Selby below Williams even with his +1 Masters but he's whether you like or loathe him the closest player to the class of 92 in success, though of the class of 2000 Robo and Murphy clearly are more talented. Especially Murphy.

What I really dislike is a lot of casuals only use world titles as the yardstick like it's the only tournament played all year lol, yeah obviousy Ronnie fans had 7years of misery but he was winning other tournaments, count them as bronze and silver medals compared to the WC gold (Or starters and dessert vs the main course) but Ronnie's UK and Masters haul is where he's well ahead of his peers, John you could argue he made 8 finals vs Ronnie's 6 and 4 v 5 world titles isn't a big gap but 2 Masters 3 UKs vs 7 for both is too big to ignore. Though yes a lot of those wins came with Steve Peters help, that's where Ronnie pulled away ever further while Higgins and Williams clearly are out of their prime besides Williams miracle run in 2018. I've not compared their career wins in their prime era the 2000s but they were comparable, since it's the class of 2000 and now Judd, Ding etc vying to become the best, all the more incredible how great Ronnie's longevity is, not always the apex predator, that changes hands but he's always up there if not at the top and finds ways to slip back there often!


It's not important but Trump, Selby and pretty much everyone else is far away from maximum records, wonder why? Is it cueball control? Ronnie obviously the best at it, Hendry must have been good to make 11 maximums, Higgins on 10, Bingham's lucky more than anything. Murphy's the Magician, Ding's comparable to Ronnie in cueball so fittingly is in the shortlist for most maxis. With how many tournaments players play now especially the likes of Trump and Selby it's damn obvious they are lacking a key component that Ronnie and Hendry have or had, maybe too with Hearn being a miser upping prize money but abolishing the juicy maximum prize pots it's affected them but then, maximums are more common than ever :chin: (Though Ronnie made more pre Hearn luckily else he'd be a bit poorer (He's made a lot of money from maxi prizes) and maybe even refused a lot of the maximums due to prize money disputes)

Here's my best to worst players tier list
T1: Rocket, Jimmy White
T2: Mark Williams, Ding, Liang Wenbo, Kyren, Barry Hawkins, Stephen Maguire
T3: Murphy, Robo (They were 4th for a long time Robo was arrogant when younger and Murphy damn establishment dog but he is a damn good player very positive), Bingham, Carter, Trump (Gone off him for his arrogance), Mark Allen
T4: Selby, John Higgins, Ebdon, Hendry (T1 as a pundit though)


:goodpost:

Re: Betfred World Championship Final K.Wilson v R.O'Sullivan

Postby SnookerArcher

Juddernaut88 wrote:Snookerarcher do you really need to write an essay?


I come here very infrequently so I say my piece in bulk. I had a much longer post which sadly got lost 2 days ago summarising Ronnie's long gap from his failed world title defence to the present that utterly dwarfs what you think is an essay. Better to type a few meaningful longer posts than several thousand, much of which is SPAM (Snookerfan!) (Yes I read a few thousand posts here to catch up on things before I disappear again for a long period)

The main reason I came back was to say suck you to the doubters of Ronnie ever winning another title, some of us never doubted it (Not to say I expected him to win it this year else I'd have put money on it) though he hasn't made it easy to keep faith recent years. Again I can only imagine how negative things were last year after he got beaten 1st round.

Re: Betfred World Championship Final K.Wilson v R.O'Sullivan

Postby rekoons

rekoons wrote:I went through the data and listed the numbers 1 2 and 10 % +50 break scorers from the last 20 seasons:

Image

For me this on it's own is enough objective data to state O Sullivan is the greatest snooker player from the last 2 decades.
Otherwise the whole GOAT debate feels too subjective to me.

Who knows where hendry would've been had he been born the same year as Ronnie, they would've pushed each other on to ever become better my guess.

I highlighted some seasons which seem to be more competititve than others in terms of % difference between numbers 1 and 2. (I forgot to highlight 11/12 with Ronnie and Allen, can't be bothered now to change)

another interesting observation is that over the course of 20 years the number 10 percentage has been rising smoothly, and faster than the # 1 spot, suggesting the top of the field is getting more competitive.



Seems like somebody else did the same with 70+ break percentages:

Same story at first glance, except for 2008/2009 Mark Selby, and 2013/2014 Ding Junhui.

https://www.reddit.com/r/snooker/commen ... er_season/

Image

Re: Betfred World Championship Final K.Wilson v R.O'Sullivan

Postby csprince

SnookerArcher wrote:This time the Rocket was too powerful for the blackhole Selby to suck in! Sucker haha.
Mark Williams would have beat him if he had his form for the first half of his match with Ronnie, he was punishing Ronnie and unlike most players he wouldn't be bothered by Selby's negative play infact he also thrives on scrappy play.

Ergh I dread the prospect of him winning more triple crowns at all let alone WC, hope Trump and co step up their game to stall him as the class of 92 won't be here forever. (Even then since 2014 none of them stopped him in the Crucible barring last week's epic semi final.) He seems to have Robertson's number (Trump they've only met in one triple crown oddly and Trump won at least, perhaps that's Selby's weakness, power snooker, players who smash the ball are harder to contain, it's like fighting a kung fu master or some other fighter who is just too good in defence but if something or someone is too damn strong for them to hurt or lock up and too strong for them to block then it's over)... Anyhow got sick of seeing Selby as no.1 for 2010s, he's very bad for the sport with that negative play and now he's exposed himself to be a sore loser :emb: , he really hasn't redeeming qualities, on the table we knew that but now off it oh dear... What does puzzle me is how successful he is in the Masters, that was a younger Selby though perhaps he was more positive then so better short format suited vs what he's become since.... He beats Higgins and Williams in that department at least, Masters. (Though he's had a terrible recent record).... To put a little balance with my obvious distaste for him, he is very good at doubles he did a cracker in the 2017 Crucible from the top to the bottom of the table.

If going back to 2016-17 Selby was on a run but I think he exhausted himself farming tournaments in China, he was the man there for a while but his UK record has been drab since his last WC hasn't it? He definitely looked exhausted in 2017-18, which was Ronnie's season minus that anticlimatic Crucible run. (Plus the Masters was a letdown) Robertson blames his dip in form and falling out of the top 16 for a period on gaming addiction :td: , that match with Fu was ragged. Reiterating he's the last person I want to win a WC besides maybe Higgins, it's tough between the two hence me boycotting the 2017 final :-D , now Ronnie's clear of John by 2 I'll pick him over Selby though, I don't want Selby to be > Williams though he is by one Masters title.... As for the ranking tournament tally, that's horse :hankey: to compare a player's status. Davis definitely is > Higgins in prestige BUT because a lot of his tournaments weren't ranking tournaments when he won them, that bureaucratic nonsense has him at 28 ranking titles only. There are so many tournaments now as well and obviously they're all different in status, I don't count Trump's record 6 in a year as better than Selby's 5 or Ronnie's as they won the UK and begrudgingly Selby won the WC as well in his fab 5. Trump won some small tournament to get the 6th.... As much as I dislike Hendry and will argue to the end of time Ronnie is better, Hendry's 36 ranking titles is definitely superior to Ronnie's 37 in the sense that there were far fewer tournaments in his era and sucked them up like a whirlpool. Selby, Robo, Trump etc are actually in a good position to challenge those ranking title hauls in the international era they're in (Well not right now with covid), poor measure anyway I agree with Ronnie saying to measure them by their Majors as that's the only constant. Definitely not by prize money as that changes constantly, nor centuries as that's influenced by no. of tournaments and equipment rather than just skill. In total titles Davis is still king at 81, Ronnie's just reached 70 with his 6th WC, think Hendry has 74 (I know a lot of titles were challenge matches for Davis...)
Anyway it's up for debate, I would put Selby below Williams even with his +1 Masters but he's whether you like or loathe him the closest player to the class of 92 in success, though of the class of 2000 Robo and Murphy clearly are more talented. Especially Murphy.

What I really dislike is a lot of casuals only use world titles as the yardstick like it's the only tournament played all year lol, yeah obviousy Ronnie fans had 7years of misery but he was winning other tournaments, count them as bronze and silver medals compared to the WC gold (Or starters and dessert vs the main course) but Ronnie's UK and Masters haul is where he's well ahead of his peers, John you could argue he made 8 finals vs Ronnie's 6 and 4 v 5 world titles isn't a big gap but 2 Masters 3 UKs vs 7 for both is too big to ignore. Though yes a lot of those wins came with Steve Peters help, that's where Ronnie pulled away ever further while Higgins and Williams clearly are out of their prime besides Williams miracle run in 2018. I've not compared their career wins in their prime era the 2000s but they were comparable, since it's the class of 2000 and now Judd, Ding etc vying to become the best, all the more incredible how great Ronnie's longevity is, not always the apex predator, that changes hands but he's always up there if not at the top and finds ways to slip back there often!


It's not important but Trump, Selby and pretty much everyone else is far away from maximum records, wonder why? Is it cueball control? Ronnie obviously the best at it, Hendry must have been good to make 11 maximums, Higgins on 10, Bingham's lucky more than anything. Murphy's the Magician, Ding's comparable to Ronnie in cueball so fittingly is in the shortlist for most maxis. With how many tournaments players play now especially the likes of Trump and Selby it's damn obvious they are lacking a key component that Ronnie and Hendry have or had, maybe too with Hearn being a miser upping prize money but abolishing the juicy maximum prize pots it's affected them but then, maximums are more common than ever :chin: (Though Ronnie made more pre Hearn luckily else he'd be a bit poorer (He's made a lot of money from maxi prizes) and maybe even refused a lot of the maximums due to prize money disputes)

Here's my best to worst players tier list
T1: Rocket, Jimmy White
T2: Mark Williams, Ding, Liang Wenbo, Kyren, Barry Hawkins, Stephen Maguire
T3: Murphy, Robo (They were 4th for a long time Robo was arrogant when younger and Murphy damn establishment dog but he is a damn good player very positive), Bingham, Carter, Trump (Gone off him for his arrogance), Mark Allen
T4: Selby, John Higgins, Ebdon, Hendry (T1 as a pundit though)


wow war and peace would take less time to read.