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Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby HappyCamper

Godot wrote:Regarding the Tour Championship - What happens if Bingham/Wilson finish on the exact same points for 8th? Play-off the day before?


i think tiebreaker is either a countback (ie who has most tournament wins) or world rankings.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Koninkaulus

Am I the only one who thinks Andre should absolutely not be allowed to ref O'Sullivan's matches in competition? It already seems very troubling to me that he's reffed other top players, i.e. O'Sullivan's biggest rivals.

Imagine a tennis umpire gushing about Federer or Nadal on the internet, or a football referee openly rooting for his team on their fan forum. That would end any hopes of a top-level career in an instance if it was discovered. Why wouldn't this apply to snooker? A snooker referee's role in the match is not insignificant.

Regarding post history, I think comments made about players are even more problematic than those about other referees. While Andre seems like a nice enough guy, I'm sure he's occasionally criticised players or openly rooted against them on here. If I was a professional snooker player and found out that I've been reffed by someone who has made any negative comments about me or supported my opponents on an internet forum, I would file a formal complaint immediately.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby D4P

Koninkaulus wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Andre should absolutely not be allowed to ref O'Sullivan's matches in competition? It already seems very troubling to me that he's reffed other top players, i.e. O'Sullivan's biggest rivals.


I could be wrong, but it seems to me that snooker refs have very little influence on the outcome of a match. They don't have to make a lot of decisions or exercise a lot of judgment in ways that could favor one player over the other.

And if they were to make decisions that favored one player unfairly, those decisions would be pretty easy to detect and the ref probably wouldn't last long at the job...

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Andre147

Having Ronnie as my favourite changes absolutely nothing. I'm always and always will be neutral when reffing a match, and many persons in the top echellons of the game can testify that.

And you'd be surprised how many refs dont like certain players... but when reffing we are ALWAYS neutral, 99% of all us are, fair play, just like 99% of all players.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby D4P

Andre147 wrote:And you'd be surprised how many refs dont like certain players


Is that generally because of things that happen at the table, or off the table?

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Koninkaulus

Andre147 wrote:Having Ronnie as my favourite changes absolutely nothing. I'm always and always will be neutral when reffing a match, and many persons in the top echellons of the game can testify that.

And you'd be surprised how many refs dont like certain players... but when reffing we are ALWAYS neutral, 99% of all us are, fair play, just like 99% of all players.

But enough of this, I don't want my Snooker activities too exposed here, only if I feel like expressing them.


I'm not saying you are not fair. I'm saying a referee should not in my view post on a forum as a fan of a player, commenting on other players from a fan's standpoint. It can cast doubts.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Andre147

D4P wrote:
Andre147 wrote:And you'd be surprised how many refs dont like certain players


Is that generally because of things that happen at the table, or off the table?


On it, and occasionaly off it too.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Andre147

Koninkaulus wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Having Ronnie as my favourite changes absolutely nothing. I'm always and always will be neutral when reffing a match, and many persons in the top echellons of the game can testify that.

And you'd be surprised how many refs dont like certain players... but when reffing we are ALWAYS neutral, 99% of all us are, fair play, just like 99% of all players.

But enough of this, I don't want my Snooker activities too exposed here, only if I feel like expressing them.


I'm not saying you are not fair. I'm saying a referee should not in my view post on a forum as a fan of a player, commenting on other players from a fan's standpoint. It can cast doubts.


I can be a fan of him. What does that change? Absolutely nothing.

Let's end this now. I'm gonna tell you something... a top referee has Ronnienas his favourite player, Ronnie knows this himself. Never stopped this specific ref from reffing him and even warn him.

Referees can barely have an impact in a match and not get found out.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby D4P

Andre147 wrote:Referees can barely have an impact in a match and not get found out.


I'm glad to hear this confirmed, as this is my view too. There are many sports where refs have a lot of impact on the outcome, but snooker isn't one of them.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby HappyCamper

one of my old bosses had been a football referee/linesman. was also a massive hibs fan. he was quite open that he had made decisions to favour his team on occasion.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Andre147

D4P wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Referees can barely have an impact in a match and not get found out.


I'm glad to hear this confirmed, as this is my view too. There are many sports where refs have a lot of impact on the outcome, but snooker isn't one of them.


If you made a decision to favour to a player, I can promise you even that player wouldnt accept, much less his opponent.

There's fair play from 99% of them. Its different from a mistake. Mistakes can happen, some more costly than others, but being able to influence the outcome of a match by a referee is definately not one of them.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Johnny Bravo

Andre147 wrote:
Koninkaulus wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Having Ronnie as my favourite changes absolutely nothing. I'm always and always will be neutral when reffing a match, and many persons in the top echellons of the game can testify that.

And you'd be surprised how many refs dont like certain players... but when reffing we are ALWAYS neutral, 99% of all us are, fair play, just like 99% of all players.

But enough of this, I don't want my Snooker activities too exposed here, only if I feel like expressing them.


I'm not saying you are not fair. I'm saying a referee should not in my view post on a forum as a fan of a player, commenting on other players from a fan's standpoint. It can cast doubts.


I can be a fan of him. What does that change? Absolutely nothing.

Let's end this now. I'm gonna tell you something... a top referee has Ronnienas his favourite player, Ronnie knows this himself. Never stopped this specific ref from reffing him and even warn him.

Referees can barely have an impact in a match and not get found out.


I think I know who you are talking about, it's Jan Verhaas and he likes Ronnie. :-) :-D

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Koninkaulus

Andre147 wrote:
Koninkaulus wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Having Ronnie as my favourite changes absolutely nothing. I'm always and always will be neutral when reffing a match, and many persons in the top echellons of the game can testify that.

And you'd be surprised how many refs dont like certain players... but when reffing we are ALWAYS neutral, 99% of all us are, fair play, just like 99% of all players.

But enough of this, I don't want my Snooker activities too exposed here, only if I feel like expressing them.


I'm not saying you are not fair. I'm saying a referee should not in my view post on a forum as a fan of a player, commenting on other players from a fan's standpoint. It can cast doubts.


I can be a fan of him. What does that change? Absolutely nothing.

Let's end this now. I'm gonna tell you something... a top referee has Ronnienas his favourite player, Ronnie knows this himself. Never stopped this specific ref from reffing him.

Referees can barely have an impact in a match and not get found out.


You are under no obligation to reply to me. I'm still allowed to give my views on this.

I'm sure lots of refs have favourite players, and least favourite players. They don't go on an internet forum and post their views on players there though, nor should they. This is my point. That isn't something a top-level referee/umpire would do in any sport.

A referee can certainly have an impact on a match if he/she wants to, occasionally at the very least. There are borderline situations and difficult calls where often TV replays are inconclusive (waistcoat fouls for example). Accommodating to a faster player's pace is another thing that comes to mind.

Again, I'm not saying you're not fair. I'm saying there should be no reason to doubt that in the first place. In my opinion, publicly being a fan of some players and disliking others is just about the worst thing a top-level referee can do to cast doubt on his/her integrity (apart from betting or actual match-fixing, of course).
Last edited by Koninkaulus on 17 Mar 2019, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Koninkaulus

Andre147 wrote:Let's end this now. I'm gonna tell you something... a top referee has Ronnienas his favourite player, Ronnie knows this himself. Never stopped this specific ref from reffing him and even warn him.


Regarding this bit...Jan Verhaas immediately came to my mind too. I think he's one of the most overrated refs out there and doesn't seem to be a very nice person either. That doesn't mean he's not fair, of course.

Him (or whoever you were talking about who is relatively open about having a favourite player) reffing their favourite's matches only means that World Snooker still have a long way to go in order to become as trustworthy, fair and transparent as a sport's governing body should be (that isn't to say many other sports are doing much better). You only have to see the aforementioned Leo Scullion still being allowed near a professional snooker tournament to realise it's not exactly based on merit.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Pink Ball

Sadly, I do see Koni's point. I'd be hypocritical to say otherwise given I raised the very same point.

I know nothing about snooker refereeing. As in I know nothing about how they're selected, what World Snooker look into etc. I know a good referee when I see one, and that's as far as I can go.

I haven't seen Andre referee before. That'll change soon as watching back on matches he has refereed this week is top of my to-do list for my lazy Sunday tomorrow. The kids can buck off, I'm not going to any recycling parades tomorrow.

Having gotten to know Andre as far as one reasonably can on an online forum, I am 100 per cent certain he would referee all matches and all players fairly. But I don't get the impression Koni is suggesting otherwise.

If this were football, I think Andre would absolutely not be allowed to referee Manchester United games if he were a football referee and was posting about Manchester United online in the way he does about Sullivan. Or matches that could affect Manchester United. And I'd think that proper order.

I do think snooker refereeing tends to be less intrusive than refereeing in virtually every other sport, however. I can't recall many snooker matches wherein a referee made a bad call that cost a player a match. The closest I can remember off the top of my head is Marcel Eckhardt making a dog's dinner of a pink-ball respot in a World Championship match between Judd Trump and Liang Wenbo. And I'll cut Eckhardt some slack because I think he has improved hugely since then. He had a very shaky start.

Then again, while it's at very least a rare occurrence, I suppose there's a first time for everything and World Snooker ought to do what it can to avoid that happening.

I think it's also worth keeping in mind that sportsmanship is far, far more prevalent in snooker than any other sport. If a player thinks the referee has got a call wrong against an opponent, they'll often if not always call it that way, and the referee (almost) always takes that on board. World Snooker would probably keep that in mind too. They know almost certainly that a referee has nothing to gain by being unfair because players will call it out and convince them to change their decision anyway. A referee is less likely in snooker to influence the result in a big way than, I think, any other sport. A referee is not going to be willing to take themselves looking bad when they know there's very little chance of them getting away with it.

Then again, we can't always depend on a player's integrity, and who knows, maybe sportsmanship will eventually ebb away from snooker as it has done in nearly every other sport. We're a bit outdated as it is in that way, albeit outdated in a good way.

Andre, I think you may have a decision to make. You're young, but not so young that you can't make your own calls. You know far more about snooker refereeing than I do. If you don't think your posting will affect your prospects, I trust you on that, and I'd be delighted to see you keep up your posting. If you think about it and come to the conclusion that it will affect your prospects, you should perhaps consider leaving the forum and have all your past posts deleted. I'd be sad to see you go and have no trace left of your excellent and fair posting, and I'm sure most if not all here would agree with me on that point. But I, for one, would understand that decision and wish you well.

Again, it's up to you. But while I'd prefer if you took the former decision, I suspect the latter is the way to go. For whatever my opinion is worth.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Pink Ball

Perhaps you should get the opinion of someone you trust enough to both point you in the right direction and not 'out' you if there is indeed a problem. If you haven't done that already, that is.

It would be a lot wiser than listening to tulips such as myself giving their opinion.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Koninkaulus

Pink Ball wrote:Andre, I think you may have a decision to make. You're young, but not so young that you can't make your own calls. You know far more about snooker refereeing than I do. If you don't think your posting will affect your prospects, I trust you on that, and I'd be delighted to see you keep up your posting. If you think about it and come to the conclusion that it will affect your prospects, you should perhaps consider leaving the forum and have all your past posts deleted. I'd be sad to see you go and have no trace left of your excellent and fair posting, and I'm sure most if not all here would agree with me on that point. But I, for one, would understand that decision and wish you well.

Again, it's up to you. But while I'd prefer if you took the former decision, I suspect the latter is the way to go. For whatever my opinion is worth.


I agree with pretty much everything in your post, Pink Ball. This last part is essentially what I was getting at. It just seems very harsh (probably even more so for me as a new member) to suggest that someone should leave a forum and delete all their posts. I do, however, agree with Pink Ball that it just seems like the right thing to do for someone who aspires to be a top referee.

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that Andre would be a particularly untrustworthy referee or that he should give that up, just that there is a conflict between his refereeing aspirations and his presence on this forum. I'm sure most referees and umpires in any sport have their favourites, especially growing up. However, once you reach a level where you officiate in the same competitions your faves (and your least faves) play in, I do believe there should be no public record of who you support/dislike, or at least you should do your best to try and ensure you're not contributing to it. I would say that about anyone, in any sport.

A snooker match may well be less susceptible to being influenced by the referee than most other sporting events that have referees or umpires, but it is not 100% immune to it. Therefore, I think a certain "code of conduct" (can't think of a better term right now) off the table needs to be in place in order to maximise the trust in the ref in the eyes of both players and fans, and to minimise the possibility of controversy or doubts over his/her impartiality, integrity and fairness. I have no idea if World Snooker have any clear guidelines regarding these things, but they should.

I know I started by saying I thought it would be wrong for Andre to get to ref O'Sullivan. To be honest, there is just something uncomfortable about the thought, even if I don't consider him untrustworthy. It's about the removal of all possible doubt, I suppose. I don't WANT to know who any referee's favourite and least favourite players are, and I don't think viewers should know that.

Even if there was (and quite possibly is) reason to give snooker referees a bit more credit in the integrity/fairness department than, say, football referees, I do believe it matters if there is written evidence of support and other opinions on players all over an internet forum, and not just posted by other people but by the ref in question. Unfortunate as it may be for someone who clearly enjoys posting here.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Andre147

I won't stop posting here, but I'll be careful on some matters. There's other refs who also share their opinions online and it's ok, as long as it's not about the actual match itself.

I like it here and there's a place to do both, but as I said things can take a different route. But that wont stop me from having Ronnie as my favourite player and wanting him to win every tournament he wishes to enter. We're all Snooker fans first and foremost. And I'll have a look at some past posts and delete them if I feel like it should be deleted, but that will be it.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Andre147

And let's enjoy the rest of the tournament now.

Been a good tournament, lots of chinese players coming through so maybe would be nice if one of them won the tournament, we shall see.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Cloud Strife

Andre147 wrote:I won't stop posting here, but I'll be careful on some matters. There's other refs who also share their opinions online and it's ok, as long as it's not about the actual match itself.

I like it here and there's a place to do both, but as I said things can take a different route. But that wont stop me from having Ronnie as my favourite player and wanting him to win every tournament he wishes to enter. We're all Snooker fans first and foremost. And I'll have a look at some past posts and delete them if I feel like it should be deleted, but that will be it.


Good lad. Don't let the pedants and the naysayers stop you from doing both. <ok>

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby HappyCamper

Milkins has beaten Wilson. So Bingham has booked his place at Llandudno. Wilson is hoping Gilbert doesn't make the final now.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Wildey

Bingham is Through to the Quarter Finals and Kyren Wilson is out that means Stuart Bingham will be in Llandudno next week question is will he play Mark Allen or Ronnie O'Sullivan that depends on Dave Gilbert.

Gilbert currently in 9th but he can finish 7 or 8.


At the moment Kyren Wilson's chances are in the hands of Dave Gilbert's Oponements today.

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Wildey

Gilbert on the wrong side of a Daniel Wells comeback

should Wells beat Gilbert it will be

Mark Allen v Kyren Wilson
Ronnie O'Sullivan v Stuart Bingham

at the Tour Championship

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Drew1404

Annoying how the matches section on world snooker isnt letting us see the scoring results in the matches, not the live section but the matches results. It was working yesterday.

Yuan sijun is playing so well btw, can he win his first tournament?

Re: Betway Gibraltar Open !!!

Postby Andre147

Drew1404 wrote:Annoying how the matches section on world snooker isnt letting us see the scoring results in the matches, not the live section but the matches results. It was working yesterday.

Yuan sijun is playing so well btw, can he win his first tournament?


I should know... reffed his match, played well.