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Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Holden Chinaski

Dan-cat wrote:It’s because you are not as emotionally attached to him as us fanboys are. We are deeply in love. Hopelessly lost in the sheer beauty, style and majesty of his play.

I have the same opinion as Snookerfan as well.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:It’s because you are not as emotionally attached to him as us fanboys are. We are deeply in love. Hopelessly lost in the sheer beauty, style and majesty of his play.


Nah, you lot just talk rubbish. :wave:

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Holden Chinaski wrote: :goodpost:

I could not agree more, Snookerfan :hatoff:


Holden Chinaski wrote:I have the same opinion as Snookerfan as well.


:hatoff:

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Dan-cat

Holden Chinaski wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:It’s because you are not as emotionally attached to him as us fanboys are. We are deeply in love. Hopelessly lost in the sheer beauty, style and majesty of his play.

I have the same opinion as Snookerfan as well.


So do I.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:So do I.


I remember a time, about a year or so ago, my mate come round to watch snooker with me.

Ronnie was chatting on about something or other on the punditry, and I said; "I bet Ronnie mentions Higgins." (Higgins wasn't playing, by the way.) I got into the kitchen for about 30 seconds to get something out of the fridge, came back and they said; "Yeah, he's just mentioned him." <laugh>

What confuses me is that it's now a big issue,due to him losing one match.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Andre147

Badsnookerplayer wrote:It is not a big issue. I understand people saying that Ronnie changes his game against Higgins and this affects his results but praise is not detrimental to the outcome IMO


So why do you think he plays like that against him? I see him also praise Selby, Trump and Ding a lot and he doesn't change his natural game...

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Andre147 wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:It is not a big issue. I understand people saying that Ronnie changes his game against Higgins and this affects his results but praise is not detrimental to the outcome IMO


So why do you think he plays like that against him? I see him also praise Selby, Trump and Ding a lot and he doesn't change his natural game...


If it's such a big deal, why has Ronnie beaten him four times out of six?

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Andre147 wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:It is not a big issue. I understand people saying that Ronnie changes his game against Higgins and this affects his results but praise is not detrimental to the outcome IMO


So why do you think he plays like that against him? I see him also praise Selby, Trump and Ding a lot and he doesn't change his natural game...


What you say indicates that it is not the praising that is the problem.

It is probably just natural oscillation of form. As there is not much between them then a minor dip could lead to a heavy loss.

Ronnie is and always has been a great front runner. Money and titles don't seem to pressurise him. If he has a psychological problem with certain players then he should bung Steve Peters a few quid.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Holden Chinaski

SnookerFan wrote:
Andre147 wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:It is not a big issue. I understand people saying that Ronnie changes his game against Higgins and this affects his results but praise is not detrimental to the outcome IMO


So why do you think he plays like that against him? I see him also praise Selby, Trump and Ding a lot and he doesn't change his natural game...


If it's such a big deal, why has Ronnie beaten him four times out of six?

Great question.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby TheRocket

If you take a closer look at those matches you'll see that those wins against Higgins were actually the worst matches Ronnie played in the whole tournament (standard-wise). Even when he whitewashed him at the CoC he looked very edgy in the first three or four frames.
No one denies Ronnie can still beat Higgins but he never plays his best against him and looks like a completely different player than if he played someone else.

How else can you explain that a man who played like a god suddenly couldnt pot a ball anymore at the Welsh Open?

He genuinely believes what he keeps saying about Higgins. That Higgins is something special, this that. He doesnt treat him as a normal Top16 player like everyone else would do. Fact.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Pink Ball

Not suring why you're getting so defensive Holden. Sullivan is obviously a better player than Higgins, their career records show that, but the match-up doesn't suit Sullivan. Higgins knows how to play Sullivan and ups his game for him. The problem for Higgins is that he struggles more against everyone else, where Sullivan just pulverises most opponents. That's what sets Sullivan that bit ahead of Higgins in terms of greatness.

Players have always struggled in certain match-ups for a broad range of reasons. It doesn't automatically mean they're inferior to the player they're struggling against. Sullivan clearly struggles more against Higgins than against any other player. But that's not to say that Higgins is the better player of the two. He isn't.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby TheRocket

The thing is. It probably has nothing to do with matchup. Against Selby its pretty much a match up thing as O'Sullivan clearly struggles and hates those long scrappy and tactical frames. And yet he has managed to beat Selby quite a lot despite Selbys match up advantage.
But Higgins doesn't play him any differently than most Top16 pros would do. He doesn't slow the pace down to frustrate O'Sullivan either. He just plays the shots you would expect someone to play.

The H2H until 2005 also proves how dominant O'Sullivan once was before things completely turned around. Whether that Mastersfinal 2006 had an impact or not I don't know.

But it pretty much shows its more mental than anything else.

No doubt though that O'Sullivan is the greater player and has had the better career.
Last edited by TheRocket on 09 Mar 2018, edited 1 time in total.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Pink Ball wrote:Not suring why you're getting so defensive Holden. Sullivan is obviously a better player than Higgins, their career records show that, but the match-up doesn't suit Sullivan. Higgins knows how to play Sullivan and ups his game for him. The problem for Higgins is that he struggles more against everyone else, where Sullivan just pulverises most opponents. That's what sets Sullivan that bit ahead of Higgins in terms of greatness.

Players have always struggled in certain match-ups for a broad range of reasons. It doesn't automatically mean they're inferior to the player they're struggling against. Sullivan clearly struggles more against Higgins than against any other player. But that's not to say that Higgins is the better player of the two. He isn't.


I think the point is, that nobody made a big deal out of it when Ronnie beats Higgins.

Higgins knocks Ronnie in a Quarter-Final and people are still bellyaching about it a week later. Several days after the tournament finished.

Ronnie has always been a Higgins fanboy, but it's only in the last week that anybody has had a big problem with it.

Besides, if it's so obvious that Ronnie's career stats are better, why do we care this much about the loss? Surely, one match won't change anything.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Andre147

One or 2 matches might not change much, the it does change quite a lot the h2h in ranking events, which if I'm not mistaken stands at 21-10 in Higgins favour.

Sure, Ronnie is the greater player, but that h2h in rankers is very very worrying...

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Andre147 wrote:Sure, Ronnie is the greater player, but that h2h in rankers is very very worrying...


Why?

Ronnie has absolutely nothing to prove, even if he retired tomorrow. So, what is it you find so worrying?

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Andre147

SnookerFan wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Sure, Ronnie is the greater player, but that h2h in rankers is very very worrying...


Why?

Ronnie has absolutely nothing to prove, even if he retired tomorrow. So, what is it you find so worrying?


Everytime they face in a rankung event lets just say my confidende wont be sky high..

Up until 2005 Higgins led 9-8 in rankers, since then Ronnie has ony won 2 matches in ranking events. Now you know why...

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Cloud Strife

Andre147 wrote:And funny enough those 2 wins all came in a Shanghai Masters Semi-Final


Didn't Ronnie also beat him in one of the Home Nations tournament this season?

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Dan-cat

What is the difference between a ranker and a non-ranker anyway? Really? Especially these days when it's a money list. Are matches in the Masters less important/easier? No.

So Ronnie leads in the h2h.

John Higgins: 29 (43.94%)
Ronnie O'Sullivan: 34 (51.52%)

Frame difference:

John Higgins: 342 (48.65%)
Ronnie O'Sullivan: 361 (51.35%)
Last edited by Dan-cat on 09 Mar 2018, edited 1 time in total.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Andre147 wrote:Up until 2005 Higgins led 9-8 in rankers, since then Ronnie has ony won 2 matches in ranking events. Now you know why...


Ronnie beat him in the English Open this season, that was a ranking event.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Cloud Strife

SnookerFan wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Up until 2005 Higgins led 9-8 in rankers, since then Ronnie has ony won 2 matches in ranking events. Now you know why...


Ronnie beat him in the English Open this season, that was a ranking event.


Yeah, I thought so.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:What is the difference between a ranker and a non-ranker anyway? Really? Especially theses days when it's a money list. Are matches in the Masters less important/easier? No.

So Ronnie leads in the h2h.

John Higgins: 29 (43.94%)
Ronnie O'Sullivan: 34 (51.52%)

Frame difference:

John Higgins: 342 (48.65%)
Ronnie O'Sullivan: 361 (51.35%)


It slightly slants it, just counting ranking events.

Ronnie did beat Higgins in the CoC, which though is an invitational, is hardly a low prestige event. The pressures will be the same.

You can't tell me Ronnie was more relaxed in the Champion of Champions, just because it wasn't a ranker. Or that it shouldn't be considered a decent win.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Cloud Strife

SnookerFan wrote:
Andre147 wrote:Sure, Ronnie is the greater player, but that h2h in rankers is very very worrying...


Why?

Ronnie has absolutely nothing to prove, even if he retired tomorrow. So, what is it you find so worrying?


It's very worrying, tbh. I'm struggling to sleep at night due to the stress of it.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby SnookerFan

We're also at risk of underrating Higgins here.

He is still one of the greatest players of all time. We're making him sound like some rank amateur that gets lucky only when he plays Ronnie.

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Holden Chinaski

Dan-cat wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:
You can't tell me Ronnie was more relaxed in the Champion of Champions, just because it wasn't a ranker. Or that it shouldn't be considered a decent win.


Exactly this.

Indeed.

Dan Cat, Snookerfan :hatoff:

Re: ManBetX Welsh Open Final !!!

Postby Iranu

"Worrying" isn't the word I would use, I don't know why anyone should be worried about it. It's not like he CAN'T beat Higgins. If it was a Carter/Ronnie situation then fine.

"Annoying" is what I would call it. The knowledge that form goes out if the window when they meet is just irritating.

But the only thing that Higgins will be ahead of Ronnie in by the time they retire is their head to head. I know who I'd rather be supporting, even if Ronnie loses every one of their meetings from now until reitrement (which he won't).

Nothing to be worried about.