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Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Witz78

wildJONESEYE wrote:it will mean playing well in the first 2 tournaments of the season then going walkabout and thinking they done enough is no longer a option because it could cost you badly a crucible spot when the revised rankings come along the following season.


Good point, the likes of Walden and Wenbo last season spring to mind, early on in the season they were stick ons for the top 16 at the end of the season but then the wins dried up and Walden missed out and Wenbo nearly did too.

Of course under the new system they wouldnt have missed out on the top 16 though, cos they would have taken their place on merit when they deserved too rather than the old system which kept them out despite their good results.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Witz78

wildJONESEYE wrote:it swings in roundabouts i understand that and think its great but theres people who see rolling rankings as negative now <doh>


yeh people go on about players suddenly being punished for losing points from events a few years back or having lots of points to defend but its far fairer than the old system.

In effect the old system with only the 1 update per year meant you could then argue that it was unfair that someone had a great season 2 years ago but was now due to lose all them points in the one swoop. At least this way with the rankings regularly updated everyone can see whos on form, out of form and rising up and down the rankings, so standards will surely rise as the scramble for vital points at ALL events (incl. PTC) will be taken seriously, no margin for error now with automatic qualification for the next few events up for grabs 4 times a season.

Any critics of the new system put your queries or criticisms of it to me and ill argue the point with you and demonstrate the advantages. <ok>

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

i think its a good system and looking at the "revised provisionals" of the top 16 as calculated by a poster on TSF it looks like this prior to the PTC in 2 weeks.

1 Higgins 46470
2 Robertson 44930
3 Carter 38720
4 Ding 36450
5 Murphy 36380
6 O'Sullivan 35710
7 Maguire 33920
8 Williams 32580
9 Allen 31430
10 Hendry 30010
11 Dott 28615
12 Selby 27970
13 King 25610
14 Fu 24060
15 Day 24010
16 Ebdon 23770

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Witz78

wildJONESEYE wrote:i think its a good system and looking at the "revised provisionals" of the top 16 as calculated by a poster on TSF it looks like this prior to the PTC in 2 weeks.

1 Higgins 46470
2 Robertson 44930
3 Carter 38720
4 Ding 36450
5 Murphy 36380
6 O'Sullivan 35710
7 Maguire 33920
8 Williams 32580
9 Allen 31430
10 Hendry 30010
11 Dott 28615
12 Selby 27970
13 King 25610
14 Fu 24060
15 Day 24010
16 Ebdon 23770


Thats interesting reading. Im actually surprised to see Fu still in there actually :scared: Surprising to see no sign of Wenbo !!

Obviously Wenbo will be at the Shanghai Masters and World Open automatically as hes currently in the top 16 wheras Ebdon will have to qualify.

Then after the World Open rankings will be updated, thats when well truly begin to see how the rankings work, and they should start to put a few critics of this systems minds at rest. A lot of people dont fully understand how they work either which doesnt help. The transitional phase between the old rankings and the new ones taking effect creates a bit of uncertainty and confusion but things will soon make sense.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

yes theres points from 5 PTC,Shanghai and the World Open to go on top of them potentially say 24,000 points (depending on shanghai and WO Points tariff) if someone wins the lot lol

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Witz78

Wild,

you seem to be one of the few who fully knows the score on the new rankings. You must have paid attention to me and Seifer a few years back when we championed the rolling rankings list haha.

Just waded through the comments on the snookersceneblog and its the blind leading the blind !!!

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

i always wanted this system what i did not like was the way mark king was put up as someone that should not be in the top 16 on the old system by seifer when i quite rightly said that would not change see Mark King at no 13 his highest ranking for quite a few years lol

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Witz78

wildJONESEYE wrote:i always wanted this system what i did not like was the way mark king was put up as someone that should not be in the top 16 on the old system by seifer when i quite rightly said that would not change see Mark King at no 13 his highest ranking for quite a few years lol


hes not lost a lot because the start of 2008/09 was when hed returned to the top 16 but he started poorly losing his first few matches.

Im totally confident to predict under this system he will soon start to slide though ( bookmark this if u want <ok> )

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

the only other thing id like is the tariff of the other ranking tournaments to reflect whats on offer so id go

Shanghai 7,000
World Open 4,000
UK Championship 8,000
German Masters 6,000
Welsh Open 6,000
China Open 7,000
World Championship 10,000

shanghai and China has best of 19 finals

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Roland

Good to see this is finally being talked about and more information about exactly how it works has come to light. I guess two years rolling will be seen as more fair by some but to be honest I'm a little disappointed. Anyway, 3 refreshes per season is great news. I noticed on the Hendon blog the comments were generally positive although they were all confusing each other about how it would work. It's pretty simple really. As soon as you hit refresh and the rankings are static for the next few tournaments, there will be a provisional list which has already knocked out the dead events from 2 years ago and the players and followers will simply add up the points per event in the mean time to get to the total which will form the next static period.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

people are actually disappointed points Players earned in 2008 will not count towards seedings for the World Championship 2011 i guess theres no pleasing everyone no matter what you do.

regarding 2 years rolling at the moment that was the only option because players didn't know about this when they played the tournaments in 08/09(compromise i guess) however i think when it sorted and in full swing and more tournaments added it will be culled to a 1 year rolling rankings.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Monique

I think a one year rolling list only makes sense if there are indeed enough ranking tournaments. But there is no hurry. I think working on invitationals where players can relax more, show their character, express themselves and interact may be more important to rebuild image and renew the audience as a fist priority.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

Monique wrote:I think a one year rolling list only makes sense if there are indeed enough ranking tournaments. But there is no hurry. I think working on invitationals where players can relax more, show their character, express themselves and interact may be more important to rebuild image and renew the audience as a fist priority.


i agree take time asses things and dont run in to major decisions on a whim lets see how this works lets get everyone within snooker clued up to whats happening and understand it.

atleast now they cant vote on it or not they will have to like it or lump it but barry dont want to upset everyone to soon do it gradual lol

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

I think the whole points allocation for all the events needs to change although it will take a couple of years to do it. The new system is alright as a transition but a one year fully rolling ranking is the best way to do it.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Monique

http://snookerscene.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... earer.html

THE RANKINGS: MAKING THINGS A LITTLE CLEARER
I realise yesterday's post about the rankings confused a few people so let me explain it again by using the new season calendar.

You will see the various cut off points when the list is revised. This happens three times during the coming season and once again at the end of it.

It's a two-year rolling list so players only keep the points they earned for the previous two years worth of tournaments at any given time, i.e. after this year's World Open the points earned in the 2008 Northern Ireland Trophy, Shanghai Masters and Grand Prix are taken off.

Here is the calendar for the coming season. The 20 counting tournaments are the World Championship, UK Championship, China Open, Shanghai Masters, World Open, Welsh Open, German Masters, the 12 Players Tour and European Players Tour events and the grand finals.

The full ranking points tariff breakdown is still to be decided.

2010
MAY
17 Apr – 3 May Betfred.com World Championship Crucible Theatre, Sheffield
CUT OFF DATE FOR SEEDING FOR SHANGHAI MASTERS AND WORLD OPEN

28-30 World Seniors Championship qualifiers Cue Club, Bradford

JUNE
2-6 Rundili 2010 World Snooker Wuxi Classic Wuxi, China
25-27 Players Tour Championship 1 (PTC1) Academy

JULY
9-11 Players Tour Championship 2 (PTC2) Academy
18-25 6 Red Championship Thailand

AUGUST
2-5 Shanghai Masters qualifiers Academy
6-8 Players Tour Championship (PTC3) Academy
14-16 Players Tour Championship (PTC4) Academy
21-24 World Open qualifiers Academy
27-29 Euro Players Tour Championship (EPTC 1) Germany

SEPTEMBER
2 Premier League
6-12 Shanghai Masters Shanghai
16 Premier League
18-26 World Open (formerly Grand Prix) SECC, Glasgow
30 Premier League

OCTOBER
1-3 Euro Players Tour Championship (EPTC 2) Europe
CUT OFF DATE FOR SEEDING FOR UK CHAMPIONSHIP AND THE MASTERS

7 Premier League
8-10 Players Tour Championship (PTC5) Academy
14 Premier League
15-17 Players Tour Championship (PTC 6) Academy
21 Premier League
22-24 Euro Players Tour Championship (EPTC 3) Frankfurt, Germany
28 Premier League
29-31 Euro Players Tour Championship (EPTC 4) Europe

NOVEMBER
4 Premier League
5-7 World Seniors Championship Cedar Court Hotel, Bradford
11 Premier League
12-14 Euro Players Tour Championship (EPTC 5) Hamm, Germany
13-20 Asian Games Guangzhou
18 Premier League
19-21 Euro Players Tour Championship (EPTC6) Halle, Germany
24 Nov – 1 Dec UK Championship qualifiers Academy
27-28 Premier League Finals Potters

DECEMBER
4-12 UK Championship Telford Int Centre
CUT OFF DATE FOR SEEDING FOR GERMAN MASTERS AND WELSH OPEN

14-17 German Masters qualifiers Academy

2011
JANUARY
3-6 Championship League
9-16 The Masters Wembley Arena
24-27 Championship League
28-30 Sky Shoot Out tbc

FEBRUARY
2-6 German Masters Berlin, Germany
8-11 Welsh Open qualifiers Academy
14-20 Welsh Open Wales
CUT OFF DATE FOR SEEDING FOR CHINA OPEN AND BETFRED.COM WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

24-27 China Open qualifiers Academy
28 – 3 Mar Championship League

MARCH
4-15 Betfred.com World Championship qualifiers Academy
17-20 Players Tour Championship Final tbc
21-24 Championship League

APRIL
28 March – 3 April China Open Beijing

APRIL/MAY
16 April – 2 May Betfred.com World Snooker Championship Crucible Theatre, Sheffield
11-31 May* Qualifying School Academy

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

Monique wrote:Shouldn't this discussion be in the World Open thread rather than in the rolling ranking system thread?


UMMMMMMMM YES LOL <laugh>

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

DECEMBER
4-12 UK Championship Telford Int Centre
CUT OFF DATE FOR SEEDING FOR GERMAN MASTERS AND WELSH OPEN

14-17 German Masters qualifiers Academy



just noticed that nobody will know the draw for the german masters until 2 days before qualifying we could have a situation where players watching the UK Final not knowing if they will have to go up to sheffield that week lol

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Roland

I'm sure they'll have a fair idea by the time of the latter stages of the previous event. There will be the odd occasion where someone is waiting on a result but it won't happen that often. It means more tv viewers too, the players will watch more :redneck:

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:I'm sure they'll have a fair idea by the time of the latter stages of the previous event. There will be the odd occasion where someone is waiting on a result but it won't happen that often. It means more tv viewers too, the players will watch more :redneck:


your right obviously the last qualifying round might not be completed but suerly players at the lower end of qualifying would know by the final of the second biggest tournament lol

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

http://www.worldsnooker.com/PTC1_news(Q ... eter_Lines)-2331.htm?tid=166
Peter Lines wrote:What are your targets for the new season?

I haven’t really got any to be honest, with everything changing now. The only disappointment was finishing just outside the top 48 last season, at number 50. But with the rankings system changing now, it’s not so important and you can get in there as the season goes on. It’s much better for all the players, in addition to all the new tournaments.


i think that sums it up for players thats outside a certain ranking and they can see that as inspiration to play well in Every Tournament.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

http://www.global-snooker.com/rankings- ... nkings.asp

Globalsnooker Fails to understand the concept of Rolling Rankings they have added points from the PTC on to the totals without taking the points off first ..

You got to take points off at the start so players know where they stand in the rankings.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Roland

It really is quite staggering how many people don't understand how it works. It's so simple!

I've just been laughing at the comments on Hendons blog because they haven't got a clue and the more people that chip in the more confused everyone gets.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:It really is quite staggering how many people don't understand how it works. It's so simple!

I've just been laughing at the comments on Hendons blog because they haven't got a clue and the more people that chip in the more confused everyone gets.


yes but the way global works it out its a 3 year static ranking system just add on points at will.

i think its clear WS will not be updating Provisionals but just look at the difference between Dave Harold on Global and on where he actually sits 19 places from 31 to 50.

my 2 posts on Hendon is

"It's because the rankings will not be updated properly until after the World Open i.e. things will stand as they are for now and then the 2008 n.i, shanghai and grand prix events will be removed (or so i am led to believe)"
_____________________________________

well that is very wrong players will then think ive done enough to be seeded for the UK then bang they take away 9,000 to 12,000 points and they drop down like a lead balloon.

Matt You carry on doing it the way you are that is the correct way.


Dave

its simple really.

when you roll the rankings every tournament like Tennis that works however in snooker when you add points from 6 PTC,Shanghai and World Open and take away the points of 3 2008 tournament it has to be at the beginning of that window so a player knows where they stand.

like Janie done it a player could be provisional 11th at the End of EPTC2 BUT get points deducted after the EPTC2 and drop out of the top 16 in to qualifying.

6:08 PM

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Roland

What about this one:

Basicly what we have here with the PTC is a 40+ Day Season Long Ranking Event.

Basicly Mark Williams has won a Leg of the Tour de france but he has not won the Race.


:redneck:



Back to the rankings I've not checked but I would be surprised if Matt from Prosnookerblog hasn't got the right idea.

Points at end of last season = rankings until the next cut off

Points at end of last season - points from 2008 Shanghai and Grand Prix = provisional points which you add on PTC, Shanghai etc to get the next set of rankings.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Wildey

well yes that was me but yesterday lol

on tennis rankings if a player reaches the semi in 2009 he has to reach at least the semis in 2010 or he falls down but with cut off points you got to start off with points deducted so players know what they got to do.

Tennis = Players got to match or better Previous years so they know

Snooker=Get Calculators out and work it out themselves lol

i dont think World Snooker will carry provisionals they will just change official at the cut off point.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Roland

But they will always carry 24 months worth of ranking points. I don't see what harm it will do for them to then have a provisional list for players to build on. Like "ok right now you're number 14 and you're in the UK and Masters but you're starting from 20 so you'd better get a few results if you want to go straight to Sheffield" sort of thing.

Whether they do it or not, everyone will want to know where they stand so it stands to reason that the provisional list will appear on the World Snooker website through demand and to stop speculation with well meaning members of the snooker public having to work it out for themselves and potentially getting it wrong.

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Monique

Today WPBSA published an update on ranking standings, see here
http://www.worldsnooker.com/latest_rankings.htm
Latest Rankings

Please click the pdf document at the bottom of this page to see the latest world rankings.

The rankings now work as a two-year rolling list. There will be three 'cut-off points' during the 2010/11 season, when the ranking points for the corresponding tournaments during the 2008/09 season will be taken off.

The first cut-off point is after EPTC2, which runs from October 1-3. The ranking points for the 2008 Northern Ireland Trophy, Roewe Shanghai Masters and Grand Prix will then be removed. The updated list will then be used for seedings for the UK Championship and the Masters.

The second cut-off point is after the UK Championship (December 4-12), when the list will be used to seed the German Masters and Welsh Open. The third cut-off point is after the Welsh Open (February 14-20), when the list will be used to seed the China Open and Betfred.com World Snooker Championship.

The list only shows the 96 players on the Tour for the 2010/11 season.
http://www.worldsnooker.com/site_files/ ... nkings.pdf


Now that updated ranking list doesn't make much sense: it isn't the official list and it doesn't reflect the provisional standings neither as explained by Dave here

http://snookerscene.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... -5040.html
YOUR STARTER FOR 5,040...
For the many commenters wondering about how the ranking list would be presented, starter points etc...we now have an answer.

New professionals will receive 5,040 starter points, equal to the eighth placed player on the one-year list from last season not already on the tour.

Players who played on the tour in 2008/09 but not 2009/10 do not keep the points they earned in the first season.

The WPBSA has issued the first ranking list of the season WITHOUT the points for the first three tournaments of the 2008/09 campaign removed.

These will be removed at the first cut-off point in October.

The problem with this is that the list gives a misleading picture. As it stands right now, Ronnie O'Sullivan appears to be second in the rankings but, if you subtract the points that will come off in October, he is actually fourth.

This latter list is more representative of the true position - a bit like the provisional list we have been used to for years and years - and can be followed thanks to the excellent work undertaken at Pro Snooker Blog.

Perhaps the WPBSA should issue two lists: pre and post points deduction so that players and everyone else can follow the various movements.

Or maybe that would just confuse people even more.


The actual provisional standings have been calculated by Matt and are available on his blog here: http://prosnookerblog.com/rankings/2010 ... -rankings/



I can't believe it TBH. <doh> Is it that difficult to compute a list that makes sense? :huh2:

Re: Rolling Rankings Discussion Topic

Postby Casey

I suppose its hard to get a true picture straight away because some of the tournaments no longer exist, next season it should be far easier to deduce the correct position straight away.