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Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Casey

The flat draw is good but I would prefer the top 16 seeded through to the last 32 for the UK and Worlds.

Players of that ranking deserve their place and should be seeded through imo. It's important that the best players are seeded through to the final stages on TV. I know some will say matches can be held over, but how can that be done at the UK with the current number of days broadcasting? Without changing the format to best of 7's or 5's.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby vodkadiet

Tennis appears to have a flat structure in Grand Slams(128 draw), but there are 3 rounds of qualfying before that. However, there are more tennis players than snooker players so you cannot directly compare the sports.

It may be time to have more tables at the venues so as to cut out the need for having qualifying at separate venues.

Qualifying held on Saturday/Sunday; main draw Monday.

Qualifying needs a flat structure.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Casey wrote:The flat draw is good but I would prefer the top 16 seeded through to the last 32 for the UK and Worlds.

Players of that ranking deserve their place and should be seeded through imo. It's important that the best players are seeded through to the final stages on TV. I know some will say matches can be held over, but how can that be done at the UK with the current number of days broadcasting? Without changing the format to best of 7's or 5's.


Probably the early rounds will not been broadcasted, just some matches streamed. Where's the problem? It's what we have today.
I, for one, hope that the World will get a flat structure ASAP. Players whatever their ranking don't "deserve" to be there unless they earn it by winning their matches. For years there has been protection that has brought out of form players automatically in the draw.
My guess is that Australia still "needs" the tiered structure for sponsoring reasons. I would prefer this event to disappear altogether. One top player doesn't make snooker big in Australia and it isn't. Lots of top players have made it clear they are not bothered. It's a long tiring trip for poor money. Get rid of it and invest the money elsewhere.
I'm not sure about Shanghai but it might be time constraints or venue constraints that should be solved in the future.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Wildey

it is only fair if all players play the same round in the same conditions

ie all in cubicles or all in venues.

carry players forward to atmospheric conditions and leaving others in cold cubicles cant be fair and a level playing field

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby snooky147

Wild WC wrote:it is only fair if all players play the same round in the same conditions

ie all in cubicles or all in venues.

carry players forward to atmospheric conditions and leaving others in cold cubicles cant be fair and a level playing field


Exactly right, but you and I both know that wont happen, so therefore it's not a level playing field. It's a vast difference playing a qualifier in a cubicle than it is at a venue. Under the new system if you are in the top 16 you absolutely deserve to be there but you just wait and mark my words, they will find some way to mess it up and have the so called "stars" play in different conditions.
I hope I'm wrong but don't think I will be.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Wildey

What about Ronnie when hes Back as WN 33+ If hes back

World no 1 to 7 and Ronnie in venues

surely that cant be right under no Fair system

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Roland

I'm interviewing Jason Ferguson tomorrow night so if you have any questions on this subject or any others then post them here.

I think I've got 128 flat draws covered to be honest but I'm sure someone will think of a new angle I've not thought of.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:I'm interviewing Jason Ferguson tomorrow night so if you have any questions on this subject or any others then post them here.

I think I've got 128 flat draws covered to be honest but I'm sure someone will think of a new angle I've not thought of.

the questions are More concerned that despite dressing it up as a Fair system its not unless its totally Flat and Fair and conditions are Level for all.

a tier system is fairer because you work yourself up Ranking wise to a Level then Everyone knows where they standing.

The Flat system can be manipulated to Put through players they feel like putting through which isn't fair for all.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Sonny wrote:I'm interviewing Jason Ferguson tomorrow night so if you have any questions on this subject or any others then post them here.

I think I've got 128 flat draws covered to be honest but I'm sure someone will think of a new angle I've not thought of.


- Why are the Shanghai Masters and the Australian exceptions? Is it sponsored related or due to practical consideration or just a choice?
- what about the WC? Is it the goal to go to a flat structure there as well? Would that imply a change of format or a change of venue?
- I read that there will be a top 64 seeding. How will that work exactly? (I would be surprised if it's an entirely static seeding for all tournaments)
- will most tournaments be played in one go and in one location (not necessarily one venue)
- Will this move to a flat system coincide with a policy of earning money if you win from round one on? (that IMO is a condition for the money list to work fairly)
Last edited by Monique on 19 Dec 2012, edited 1 time in total.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm interviewing Jason Ferguson tomorrow night so if you have any questions on this subject or any others then post them here.

I think I've got 128 flat draws covered to be honest but I'm sure someone will think of a new angle I've not thought of.

the questions are More concerned that despite dressing it up as a Fair system its not unless its totally Flat and Fair and conditions are Level for all.

a tier system is fairer because you work yourself up Ranking wise to a Level then Everyone knows where they standing.

The Flat system can be manipulated to Put through players they feel like putting through which isn't fair for all.



A flat system is fairer full stop. It doesn't protect out of form players, doesn't reward losers, when lower ranked winners get nothing. And if you speak about manipulation, then every system can be manipulated. The tiered system has seen matches held to the venue, most notably in the Welsh Open and occasionally in Chinese events. So that's nothing new and I can't remember you moaning about it when it favored the Welsh guys. Having said that, I didn't condone it then, and I don't condone it now.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

Wild

a teired system as we have at the moment PAYS guys who LOSE and DOESNT PAY some guys who do win. IS THAT FAIR ???

You can also earn more ranking points for LOSING your opening game than some guys do for winning theirs. IS THIS FAIR ????

Its totally unbalanced and unfair, i dont believe you still cant see this and that a Flat 128 system is the fair way to go, if your good enough and supposedly elite then simple, go out and earn and prove it.

As for who they pick to go on tv tables, that will be based on names and attractive matches rather than their rankings im sure, so itll hardly just be Ronnie (if he comes back) who benefits.

Anyway whats the difference between having some matches at a venue and other in cubicles or the Badminton Hall etc. when you compare it to Wimbledon where the bulk of players play early rounds in outer natural courts but others play the big guns like Federer, Nadal etc on the showcourts which have high stands, large crowds, different conditions and are more intimidating to them.

Surely anyone with ambition would rather play on a bigger stage than be stuck in a cubicle anyway.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby PLtheRef

Monique wrote:
Casey wrote:The flat draw is good but I would prefer the top 16 seeded through to the last 32 for the UK and Worlds.

Players of that ranking deserve their place and should be seeded through imo. It's important that the best players are seeded through to the final stages on TV. I know some will say matches can be held over, but how can that be done at the UK with the current number of days broadcasting? Without changing the format to best of 7's or 5's.


Probably the early rounds will not been broadcasted, just some matches streamed. Where's the problem? It's what we have today.
I, for one, hope that the World will get a flat structure ASAP. Players whatever their ranking don't "deserve" to be there unless they earn it by winning their matches. For years there has been protection that has brought out of form players automatically in the draw.
My guess is that Australia still "needs" the tiered structure for sponsoring reasons. I would prefer this event to disappear altogether. One top player doesn't make snooker big in Australia and it isn't. Lots of top players have made it clear they are not bothered. It's a long tiring trip for poor money. Get rid of it and invest the money elsewhere.
I'm not sure about Shanghai but it might be time constraints or venue constraints that should be solved in the future.


Don't they earn their places there (at the top of the ranking list) by winning matches anyway?

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

This http://asia.eurosport.com/snooker/snook ... tory.shtml sheds some more light

Beginning in 2013, eight of the 11 ranking events will require the top players to play from the first round, meaning they must negotiate seven matches - the first two of them away from the main venue - to lift the majority of trophies.

The World Championship, Australian Open and Shanghai Masters are exceptions.

“It is our intention to move to a flat 128-man draw for the majority of tournaments next season," said Hearn. "We want a level playing field and that is now scheduled.

"We have had to get consent from our promoters and broadcasters, and the BBC want to see how the UK goes on this basis before they agree to the World Championship.

“This comes with another big increase in prize money. It will be up to £8 million next season, but you will get nothing for going out in round one. Most of the top players I have spoken to are in favour."

However two-times world champion Mark Williams, who is ranked seventh, is one of those worried that the rewards for reaching the pinnacle of the game are being dumbed down, while there is a danger that tournaments could see top players going out in the first round.

"The top 16 are there on merit, having played for the last however many years," he said. "They deserve to be there and if you do this, then what do the rankings mean?

"You will have sponsors and TV broadcasters demanding the best players and biggest names. I don’t think there is anything wrong with the current system, though Barry has at least got all these extra events on for us to play in.

"Players should want to get into the 16, they can do that now, then they get to the venues."

Mark Allen agrees that events could find themselves shorn of their main draws by the TV rounds.

"It will be hard to agree deals when they can’t guarantee top players for TV. There is no way they will start TV in the last 128, as for tennis, so they can’t guarantee top players for TV," said the world number nine.

However no.45 Matthew Selt echoed the feeling among those looking for more opportunities to climb the ladder when he tweeted: "Everyone in round one next year for eight tournaments. It’s about time."


So the intention seems to be to go for a flat structure for the WC as well if it proves a success for the UK. Godd news.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

PLtheRef wrote:
Monique wrote:
Casey wrote:The flat draw is good but I would prefer the top 16 seeded through to the last 32 for the UK and Worlds.

Players of that ranking deserve their place and should be seeded through imo. It's important that the best players are seeded through to the final stages on TV. I know some will say matches can be held over, but how can that be done at the UK with the current number of days broadcasting? Without changing the format to best of 7's or 5's.


Probably the early rounds will not been broadcasted, just some matches streamed. Where's the problem? It's what we have today.
I, for one, hope that the World will get a flat structure ASAP. Players whatever their ranking don't "deserve" to be there unless they earn it by winning their matches. For years there has been protection that has brought out of form players automatically in the draw.
My guess is that Australia still "needs" the tiered structure for sponsoring reasons. I would prefer this event to disappear altogether. One top player doesn't make snooker big in Australia and it isn't. Lots of top players have made it clear they are not bothered. It's a long tiring trip for poor money. Get rid of it and invest the money elsewhere.
I'm not sure about Shanghai but it might be time constraints or venue constraints that should be solved in the future.


Don't they earn their places there (at the top of the ranking list) by winning matches anyway?


The tiered system has too much inertia. Look at how long Martin Gould stayed in the top 16 despite losing his first round matches nearly in every event. Nothing against him, but he had a long dry run and still stayed there. At he other end of the scale low points tariffs mean that rookie need ages to climb and earn peanuts even when winning more than they lose.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

PLtheRef wrote:
Monique wrote:
Casey wrote:The flat draw is good but I would prefer the top 16 seeded through to the last 32 for the UK and Worlds.

Players of that ranking deserve their place and should be seeded through imo. It's important that the best players are seeded through to the final stages on TV. I know some will say matches can be held over, but how can that be done at the UK with the current number of days broadcasting? Without changing the format to best of 7's or 5's.


Probably the early rounds will not been broadcasted, just some matches streamed. Where's the problem? It's what we have today.
I, for one, hope that the World will get a flat structure ASAP. Players whatever their ranking don't "deserve" to be there unless they earn it by winning their matches. For years there has been protection that has brought out of form players automatically in the draw.
My guess is that Australia still "needs" the tiered structure for sponsoring reasons. I would prefer this event to disappear altogether. One top player doesn't make snooker big in Australia and it isn't. Lots of top players have made it clear they are not bothered. It's a long tiring trip for poor money. Get rid of it and invest the money elsewhere.
I'm not sure about Shanghai but it might be time constraints or venue constraints that should be solved in the future.


Don't they earn their places there (at the top of the ranking list) by winning matches anyway?


Part of the logic behind the flat 128 and money list, is that rankings, namely the "top 16" isnt the be all and end all of being a pro, and it doesnt prostitute players into having to enter all the events to protect their place on whatever teir of the rankings they are on.

By keeping the elite top 16 under a tour with 128 players, then 112 players would be fighting for 16 qualifying places which means the odds of any making proper progress would be lessened ever more, meaning those in the top 16 would be at even more of an advantage.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Witz78

no surprise to see Williams and Allen AKA The Self Preservation Society unhappy.

If there good enough and "top, elite" players as they claim to be then seeing off someone ranked 65-128 in round 1 then someone 33-64 in round 2 should be easy enough.

Do they not understand that rankings still will be important under the new system though ?? Its hardly like the number 1 and 2 seeds will be drawn against each other in round 1, infact they wont be drawn to face each other until the final.

Anyway, if round 1 and 2 are going to be held in the location of the event, are these really qualifiers any more?? Id say the tournaments begin in the last 128 stage.

And im starting to get paranoid now cos Hearn seems to be copying every suggestion ive made in the last few years haha

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Monique

As an additional note, today with the tiered system it's the exception when matches are held to the venue, OK. But that doesn't mean that the whole system is "fair". Some matches are streamed, others aren't. And not all matches are on television in all tournaments. It's been like that for ages and nobody complained much.
Yet it does make a difference to the players involved. Not just because of the exposure but also because of the impact that exposure can have on their personal sponsoring and sponsoring money.
A player usually earns more for the same logo if he plays on television, because the sponsor gets more exposure. I'm not sure what the situation is when it comes to streaming but I would expect it to be the same.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby vodkadiet

Sonny wrote:I'm interviewing Jason Ferguson tomorrow night so if you have any questions on this subject or any others then post them here.

I think I've got 128 flat draws covered to be honest but I'm sure someone will think of a new angle I've not thought of.


Can you ask him when they are going to ban Smart and his type from all snooker venues, for life?

:xmas1:

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Smart

vodkadiet wrote:
Sonny wrote:I'm interviewing Jason Ferguson tomorrow night so if you have any questions on this subject or any others then post them here.

I think I've got 128 flat draws covered to be honest but I'm sure someone will think of a new angle I've not thought of.


Can you ask him when they are going to ban Smart and his type from all snooker venues, for life?

:xmas1:

rofl

I've heard a rumour that Ebdon is starting a break-away vegan only snooker tour. :wave:

Stephen Lee is interested in joining in this non-WSA venture as a way of continuing his career. <ok>

More details when I get them...... :wave:

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Casey

Like any kind of change, it will suit some and not others.

I can understand if some of the top players are upset. They have earned the right to play at a venue and with a crowd - not in a crucible. This is how it works in all other sports.

Same goes for the average Joe who pays for tickets.

Playing Devil's advocate on the most here, but it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Skullman

Monique wrote:
Skullman wrote:Well done Hearn for managing it if it's true. Was expecting more resistance from sponsors and people like the BBC who'd want to see the top stars at venue stages. The host country info is also good, although expenses will rack up even more for lower ranked players.

Any idea about the seeding? Will it be like main events, with a top player in each quarter, top eight in each eighth etc? Or like PTCs where one and two are in opposite haves and everything else is random? Or will there be seeding at all?


Expenses will probably get higher for the lower ranked players based in UK. But it will also mean that Chinese players (or even simply Asian players) won't necessarily need to move to UK which they have to do now as all qualifs are played there. And it might be easier for players like Khairy or Hossein Vafaei Ayouri because it's easier for them to get a visa to China or Thailand than to UK. All in all it will become fairer to non UK players.


Not necessarily. I admit I don't know a lot of the state of coaching in places like China and Thailand, but the best practice partners are still in the UK and I think aspiring players from Asia may still need to base themselves in Gloucester and Sheffield until there are enough quality opponents in their own countries.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby vodkadiet

Witz78 wrote:Yes and Pukka Parsnips are sponsoring the first tournament


That reminds me of the time when McDonalds tried opening up Vegetarian restaurants in India, this came after they had open opened up their usual slaughterhouse joints, and the mainly Hindu population protested as they didn't want to eat slaughtered carcasses of an animal they hold as sacred.

:party:

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Wildey

another question for Jason Ferguson

in the World Championship do the Top 16 players get Half points/money if they lose in the First round under Money Rankings or they get same Point/Money as a player that's fought through 6 Rounds just to get to the Crucible.

Re: 2013/14 - Is the flat structure upon us?

Postby Roland

vodkadiet wrote:Can you ask him if there is any intention of tampering with The World Championship format?


yeah got that