Wildcards

Sonny wrote:I didn't realise Lu was World U-21 champion. That's the sort of thing that should get you a wildcard!

no thats the sort of thing that gets you on tour that doesn't justify wild cards in china at all.

Well yeah, wildcard on tour. Actually I was meaning for this event but from the point of view that we know they're having wildcards, so as they are then he should be one of them. I'm not trying to justify having wildcards in Chinese events specifically, just pointing out that the reason they are controversial is because they have worked when you consider how good they are compared with how good they were.

Sonny wrote:Well yeah, wildcard on tour. Actually I was meaning for this event but from the point of view that we know they're having wildcards, so as they are then he should be one of them. I'm not trying to justify having wildcards in Chinese events specifically, just pointing out that the reason they are controversial is because they have worked when you consider how good they are compared with how good they were.

no question he should be one of the Wild Cards BUT When you look at the amount of Chinese players playing why is Jin Long who first turned pro in 2001 at the age of 31 Still having wild cards ? for what purpose.

Sonny wrote:I didn't realise Lu was World U-21 champion. That's the sort of thing that should get you a wildcard!

Yes. If the place is earned then I don't have a problem with them offering out a Wild card in that case but it should always be that a Wild card should be an exception rather than a rule. Look at how Hearn has tried to phase them out elsewhere. Only if the UK Champion is outside of the top 16 does the Masters have a wild card now. Its got to a stage now where half of those who have earned their places in the finals might be unable to take up their places if they don't defeat a player who's likely to be experienced in this situation before.

Apologies for being lazy but this is what I wrote about Wildcards before last year's Shanghai Masters and my view hasn't changed at all: http://www.snookeranalyst.com/wildcards/

To answers Sonny's questions:
1. Yes, there should arguably be more Chinese players on Tour. My hope is that when they plan how the professional tour will look over the next couple of years they give serious thought to the progression of talented players onto the tour and through the rankings, regardless of where they are from. My fear is that they just makes a series of independent decisions about tournament structures, ranking systems etc. which don't address the inherent bias in the current structure and end up making it difficult for anyone to establish themselves in the game.

2. No, I don't see the point of wildcards. I'd question how much benefit it has been for Wang Yuchen to have lost 5-0 to Ryan Day. Yes, it's important that players from China, India etc. are given support and opportunities but surely there are better ways of doing this. What about holding a short pro-am tournament before the main event, or offering coaching / mentoring to top local players? What about providing sponsorship for top overseas players to enter PTCs / Q-School? Surely these are more effective ways of developing players and giving then an opportunity to qualify for the main Tour, rather than simply awarding them a wildcard every now and then.

The wildcards are selected by the CBSA (Chinese Snooker and Billiard Association) on the basis of their recent results. So they do earn their spot. It's preposterous to expect those guys to come to UK or Europe to play in PTCs given the price of the travel and accommodations as compared to the wages in China. They just can't do it, just as most UK amateurs can't afford to play in APTCs.
If/when the APTC develop then the selection process should be reconsidered. It's also preposterous to expect them to come to UK to play qualifiers from round one. When (and it's when, not if - I got this from first hand and reliable source) the qualifiers will be played in China then again this should be reconsidered.
Meanwhile I don't understand all the fuss about it being "unfair". The pros who get beat, get their money and points exactly as if they had lost to the seed. If anything playing a match ahead of meeting the seed gives them match practice under the actual tournament conditions while their opponent will be cold.
I personally find it a lot more unfair that some low ranked pros have to play their first round match against an amateur in tournament qualifiers. The amateurs have not earned their place there neither, and they have nothing to lose, hence no pressure, while the low ranked pros are under tremendous pressure to build their point tally and often need to win two matches before getting any money.
And also, wilcards get no money, irrespective how far they go in the tournament, those amateurs who are shoed in do earn money if they progress far enough.

I don't like the wildcards either when it comes to China, the players are too good, the game is developed enough over there, fans (and television) aren't interested and its not fair on the 8 qualifiers who have rightly earned their place in the last 32.
However it is equally unfair that these Chinese wildcards would otherwise have to fly over to the UK to have to qualify for their own tournaments. And more importantly World Snooker would have to fund 5 Chinese rankers out of their own pockets if they didn't agree to let the CBSA pick wildcards.
In Germany (and India if a ranker ever gets there), wildcards are necessary to promote the game and give locals big match experience. In China, they can more than hold their own however the wildcards are here and they're here to stay.
CBSA's money, CBSA's rules.

How do you know that fans and television are not interested. I'm here in China and I tell you that they are more photographers and videasts currently taking images from the wildcards than from Selby match. I have to admit that I didn't expect to that extend. I never doubted the interest into the local players, I've seen it in every tournament outside UK, but this is the first time that I see media recording videos from the matches in progress from the photographers booths.

If they were that interested they wouldn't have put on 2 last 32 matches (like they have started to do in all Chinese events), instead of having a full day of wildcard matches. I don't doubt there is interest in the locals but the fans want to see the top guys.

Alpha wrote:If they were that interested they wouldn't have put on 2 last 32 matches (like they have started to do in all Chinese events), instead of having a full day of wildcard matches. I don't doubt there is interest in the locals but the fans want to see the top guys.

yup there's more interest from the media/sponsors and the indulgent Chinese Snooker and Billiard Association than genuine snooker fans in china.

it adds nothing to the tournament seeing wild cards play Fergal etc

Alpha wrote:If they were that interested they wouldn't have put on 2 last 32 matches (like they have started to do in all Chinese events), instead of having a full day of wildcard matches. I don't doubt there is interest in the locals but the fans want to see the top guys.

They have been asked to mix the rounds because indeed there is not much interest outside China and the broadcasting is international. That does not mean there is no interest in China. There is. There was more media here yesterday than today.

Monique wrote:

Alpha wrote:If they were that interested they wouldn't have put on 2 last 32 matches (like they have started to do in all Chinese events), instead of having a full day of wildcard matches. I don't doubt there is interest in the locals but the fans want to see the top guys.

They have been asked to mix the rounds because indeed there is not much interest outside China. That does not mean there is no interest in China. There is. There was more media here yesterday than today.

how do you know wild? Have you ever gone to China, or spoken with Chinese fans? There IS interest in China. Far more than I expected.

Monique wrote:

Monique wrote:

Alpha wrote:If they were that interested they wouldn't have put on 2 last 32 matches (like they have started to do in all Chinese events), instead of having a full day of wildcard matches. I don't doubt there is interest in the locals but the fans want to see the top guys.

They have been asked to mix the rounds because indeed there is not much interest outside China. That does not mean there is no interest in China. There is. There was more media here yesterday than today.

how do you know wild? Have you ever gone to China, or spoken with Chinese fans? There IS interest in China. Far more than I expected.

there's interest in snooker period they dont need wild cards to be interested or lets be frank snooker in china not as popular as we thought if that's the case.

pointless excersise

It's like Wild says, the main interest in the wildcards from inside China comes from the media and from the CBSA. But even they along with the average Chinese fan want to see only one man : Ding. And when he plays, there will be more media interest than for all Chinese wildcards combined.

Well it amuses me slightly that you who are in UK, know better than me what's happening here.
Yes Ding is the big thing (and Ronnie when he is there). But that does not mean that there is no interest in the local players. Especially the very young prospects like Lu Haotian and Zhou Yuelong. The fans are following their progress, just as much as UK fans follow the promising UK young amateurs, probably more in fact. Lu Haotian at 14 is the IBSF under-21 champion. He could be on the main tour next season.

Monique wrote:Well it amuses me slightly that you who are in UK, know better than me what's happening here.
Yes Ding is the big thing (and Ronnie when he is there). But that does not mean that there is no interest in the local players. Especially the very young prospects like Lu Haotian and Zhou Yuelong. The fans are following their progress, just as much as UK fans follow the promising UK young amateurs, probably more in fact. Lu Haotian at 14 is the IBSF under-21 champion. He could be on the main tour next season.

that dont justify wild cards

and BTW im yet to see massive crowds http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss7/ ... t=file.jpg so just exactly how much proof you being there has ?

That old crowds one again. Ever heard of television?

Sonny wrote:That old crowds one again. Ever heard of television?

but monique don't know TV Figures and yet she is the fountain of rightness without any real proof.

Monique wrote:

Alpha wrote:If they were that interested they wouldn't have put on 2 last 32 matches (like they have started to do in all Chinese events), instead of having a full day of wildcard matches. I don't doubt there is interest in the locals but the fans want to see the top guys.

They have been asked to mix the rounds because indeed there is not much interest outside China and the broadcasting is international. That does not mean there is no interest in China. There is. There was more media here yesterday than today.

To mix it they should do four wild card matches on Monday and four on the Tuesday with those eight matches taking place on the Wednesday.

Wild WC wrote:

Sonny wrote:That old crowds one again. Ever heard of television?

but monique don't know TV Figures and yet she is the fountain of rightness without any real proof.

I'd like to know that as well. The TV figures for an average wildcard match compared with Ding's first round.

Well obviously Ding is going to pull the biggest viewing figures. It's the comparison between qualifier and seed viewing figures that they should be compared with i.e. the match that would have taken place without the wildcard round.

Monique wrote:Well it amuses me slightly that you who are in UK, know better than me what's happening here.
Yes Ding is the big thing (and Ronnie when he is there). But that does not mean that there is no interest in the local players. Especially the very young prospects like Lu Haotian and Zhou Yuelong. The fans are following their progress, just as much as UK fans follow the promising UK young amateurs, probably more in fact. Lu Haotian at 14 is the IBSF under-21 champion. He could be on the main tour next season.

The issue for me is that the Wildcards have now become the rule rather than the exception in the Chinese tournaments. Which when you have players having played potentially four matches to earn their place in the last 32 suddenly having to play an extra match, against someone who has been parachuted into the draw. Those who play the single game to qualify aren't as likely to play a wild card as they are higher up the rankings.

If you're going to have these matches competing you might as well make the draw a 48 man field and have a specific separate qualifying tournament for the Chinese amateurs to find eight to take part in the actual tournament. It also means that the matches are not being held at the behest of those players on tour as there would be 24 main tour qualifying slots for the tournament.

and another Point if Wild Card Matches are a Pull for TV Viewers why only 2 Wild Card matches being Shown yesterday Morning other TV Matches has been Last 32 Matches.

They Could have easily shown One Last 32 and one Wild Card matches per session during yesterday and today's play making it 4 wild card matches to not only please the wider World but also the Chinese viewers.

Regarding the crowds here is some data. Figures are in yuan the Chinese currency.
According to two persons who have bought tickets, the cheapest ones are about 50. You won't get them on evenings - then it's about 100 - or final week-end. Finals tickets are about 700 and the most expensive ones about 1500.
Going by economics data I found on Internet, the average monthly wages in 2009, in China were about 1100 in urban areas (700 in rural area). Even if this has doubled since, make the computing.

As for my "rightness", well I know for fact because I saw it with my own eyes that all those wildcard matches are filmed. Why would they do that if there is no interest? And there were over 75 people here in the media room yesterday, while neither Ding, nor the defending champion were playing and 6 out of 8 matches involved wildcards.

Well I so often hear about "the qualifier who earned their right to play on television against a top player instead of having to play a wild card" … here is something for you!
If they don't change the plans Steve - 6 times world champion and a legend of the game - will play Ricky Walden - a former Shanghai Masters winner - on table 4, while "poster boy" Stephen Lee will get a television table to battle it out vs Marcus Campbell. This means that if Ricky beats Steve - which is probable - Steve would not have been on television at all if it wasn't for the wildcard round. Now then!

And here http://soundcloud.com/moniquelimbos/sm2012jinlongwr is Jin Long press conference after his wildcard round win yesterday. Most of it is in Chinese but I asked him the question about what that "wildcard round" was bringing to him, being a Chinese amateur.
Basically, it's about having the opportunity to play the big names in real tournament conditions, something that he very rarely has the opportunity to do. His aim is to try to become a professional and he wants to be ready for when he will make the move to UK.
As I said earlier in this thread, those Chinese amateurs - ready as they are to make sacrifices - just don't have the resources to come and play in PTCs for instance. If APTC develop further the situation should be reevaluated, but as it is now, wildcard rounds are essential to them.

Wasn't Jin already a professional for a season or two, but unable to make the cut? If we have to have Chinese wildcards, at least let them be like Lu Haotian rather than thirty something ex-pros.

Skullman wrote:Wasn't Jin already a professional for a season or two, but unable to make the cut? If we have to have Chinese wildcards, at least let them be like Lu Haotian rather than thirty something ex-pros.

Jin Long turned Pro when Lu Haotian was about 3

2010 then