Tour Qualification !!!!

kenneth79 wrote:What if they had played down to the last 16 in Sheffield and held over Robbos last 32 match to Aus. Would that have made it sustainable for the players?

No it wouldn't have. Even the runner-up, Mark Williams didn't make much of it, less than a PTC win before deducting his expenses.

Wild WC wrote:i just think in a ideal world everyone makes money but its not a ideal world yes the Aussie Open financially is not the best for players but unless these ventures is backed then i trully fear that snooker will prostitute itself to China and they will own us.

Well that's exactly what your beloved Barry Hearn is working at. Because that's were the money is and believe me nothing else matters in the eyes of the businessman he is. Just look at the fact that now there are more tournaments there than in UK. Do you think Barry Hearn has been forced into that? Don't be naive.

If Barry Hearn wants to expand the game, other than in Asia, he should work at reviving in UK and expanding it in mainland Europe with proper events, supported by a proper boadcaster that will not confine snooker to afternoon programs. That's where there is a proven interest. Not in Australia or Brazil.

Monique wrote:

kenneth79 wrote:What if they had played down to the last 16 in Sheffield and held over Robbos last 32 match to Aus. Would that have made it sustainable for the players?

No it wouldn't have. Even the runner-up, Mark Williams didn't make much of it, less than a PTC win before deducting his expenses.

I see. Making this sport sustainable seems like an unsolvable problem. If what you are saying the only sustainable tournaments in the world are the WC, UK, Masters, the Chinese ones and perhaps Germany/Wales ? That doesnt seem like much of a season does it? There dont seem to be any other countries willing to invest the required money.

Monique wrote:

Wild WC wrote:i just think in a ideal world everyone makes money but its not a ideal world yes the Aussie Open financially is not the best for players but unless these ventures is backed then i trully fear that snooker will prostitute itself to China and they will own us.

Well that's exactly what your beloved Barry Hearn is working at. Because that's were the money is and believe me nothing else matters in the eyes of the businessman he is. Just look at the fact that now there are more tournaments there than in UK. Do you think Barry Hearn has been forced into that? Don't be naive.

If Barry Hearn wants to expand the game, other than in Asia, he should work at reviving in UK and expanding it in mainland Europe with proper events, supported by a proper boadcaster that will not confine snooker to afternoon programs. That's where there is a proven interest. Not in Australia or Brazil.

If it was that easy dont you think Hearn would have put on bigger tournaments in UK/Europe? ITV/Sky wont show proper snooker and BBC is becoming more and more unwilling? Perhaps the interest is there among the fans but it doesnt seem to be with the sponsors/TV companies and they bring more cash than the spectators.

I heard that Antwerp is becoming main ranking in 2013. Do you know anything about this?

kenneth79 wrote:

Monique wrote:

kenneth79 wrote:What if they had played down to the last 16 in Sheffield and held over Robbos last 32 match to Aus. Would that have made it sustainable for the players?

No it wouldn't have. Even the runner-up, Mark Williams didn't make much of it, less than a PTC win before deducting his expenses.

I see. Making this sport sustainable seems like an unsolvable problem. If what you are saying the only sustainable tournaments in the world are the WC, UK, Masters, the Chinese ones and perhaps Germany/Wales ? That doesnt seem like much of a season does it? There dont seem to be any other countries willing to invest the required money.

No that's NOT what I'm saying. It's a matter of managing priorities, and aligning resources and ambitions.
If resources are not wasted in nonsense initiatives like Brazil or Australia, they can be reinvested in other tournaments. One of the things that make those two tournaments unsustainable are the very high travel expenses put on the players for very little reward. One other thing is that both were played in the middle of nowhere instead of a big city where it could have attracted more people.

Look at the PTCs and EPTCs. Why on earth was the prize money for EPTCs, that involved traveling to Germany/Belgium/Poland and proved to be very well attended as well as broadcasted on Eurosport, lower by nearly 20% than for the PTCs played in the academy in Sheffield in front of no one? If the goal is to develop the game outside UK, that doesn't make sense. Basically the players had to reach the last 16, sometimes the quarters to cover their expenses. It should have been the other way around.

The prize money in Chinese tournaments is decent and there is a "competition" in China between sponsors and region/cities to host them. Which means that they are ready to invest even more in them. They have their "conditions" though and one is that there must be a strong enough Chinese contingent in them. Hence the wilcards. So we better accept it. They are there to stay.

It's not as if the future of snooker depends on Australia. It doesn't. Not in the least. There are plenty other places where it can be developed with better prospects and at a lower cost for everyone involved.

Wild WC wrote:

Monique wrote:

Wild WC wrote:i just think in a ideal world everyone makes money but its not a ideal world yes the Aussie Open financially is not the best for players but unless these ventures is backed then i trully fear that snooker will prostitute itself to China and they will own us.

Well that's exactly what your beloved Barry Hearn is working at. Because that's were the money is and believe me nothing else matters in the eyes of the businessman he is. Just look at the fact that now there are more tournaments there than in UK. Do you think Barry Hearn has been forced into that? Don't be naive.

If Barry Hearn wants to expand the game, other than in Asia, he should work at reviving in UK and expanding it in mainland Europe with proper events, supported by a proper boadcaster that will not confine snooker to afternoon programs. That's where there is a proven interest. Not in Australia or Brazil.

Monique Exactly thats where the Money is and unless a vision for the future is looked at long term thats where the Money will stay.

Look at the popularity of the German Masters,PTC in Germany and yet Financially the German Masters is £50,000 cheaper than the Aussie Open you can not look at china and europe alone you HAVE TO Expand and Tap in to Countries that might in Time offer more Money than China but unless you put down a seed the Tree will not Grow.

Exactly! Perhaps Aus is unsustainable but then the only thing making Germany sustainable is different tax laws (?) and shorter travel because the money isnt better there or even in Wales.

Wild WC wrote:

Monique wrote:

Wild WC wrote:i just think in a ideal world everyone makes money but its not a ideal world yes the Aussie Open financially is not the best for players but unless these ventures is backed then i trully fear that snooker will prostitute itself to China and they will own us.

Well that's exactly what your beloved Barry Hearn is working at. Because that's were the money is and believe me nothing else matters in the eyes of the businessman he is. Just look at the fact that now there are more tournaments there than in UK. Do you think Barry Hearn has been forced into that? Don't be naive.

If Barry Hearn wants to expand the game, other than in Asia, he should work at reviving in UK and expanding it in mainland Europe with proper events, supported by a proper boadcaster that will not confine snooker to afternoon programs. That's where there is a proven interest. Not in Australia or Brazil.

Monique Exactly thats where the Money is and unless a vision for the future is looked at long term thats where the Money will stay.

Look at the popularity of the German Masters,PTC in Germany and yet Financially the German Masters is £50,000 cheaper than the Aussie Open you can not look at china and europe alone you HAVE TO Expand and Tap in to Countries that might in Time offer more Money than China but unless you put down a seed the Tree will not Grow.

The German Masters is "cheaper" but it's only a short flight away from UK and the level of taxes of players earnings is not nearly 50%. Hence it's easier and a lot more profitable for the players AND for WSA. Snooker has to expand but it doesn't need to be to Australia or Brazil just now. There are a lot of more sustainable targets that should be looked into first. Balkanic countries for instance, and they are covered by Eurosport which helps.

kenneth79 wrote:

Wild WC wrote:

Monique wrote:

Wild WC wrote:i just think in a ideal world everyone makes money but its not a ideal world yes the Aussie Open financially is not the best for players but unless these ventures is backed then i trully fear that snooker will prostitute itself to China and they will own us.

Well that's exactly what your beloved Barry Hearn is working at. Because that's were the money is and believe me nothing else matters in the eyes of the businessman he is. Just look at the fact that now there are more tournaments there than in UK. Do you think Barry Hearn has been forced into that? Don't be naive.

If Barry Hearn wants to expand the game, other than in Asia, he should work at reviving in UK and expanding it in mainland Europe with proper events, supported by a proper boadcaster that will not confine snooker to afternoon programs. That's where there is a proven interest. Not in Australia or Brazil.

Monique Exactly thats where the Money is and unless a vision for the future is looked at long term thats where the Money will stay.

Look at the popularity of the German Masters,PTC in Germany and yet Financially the German Masters is £50,000 cheaper than the Aussie Open you can not look at china and europe alone you HAVE TO Expand and Tap in to Countries that might in Time offer more Money than China but unless you put down a seed the Tree will not Grow.

Exactly! Perhaps Aus is unsustainable but then the only thing making Germany sustainable is different tax laws (?) and shorter travel because the money isnt better there or even in Wales.

Indeed but it makes a world of a difference in players wallets, and in WSA wallet as well and at the end of the day that's what counts.

Some thoughts

* The interest among fans in Europe [many viewers on ES even here in Norway] hasnt translated to money rich tournaments yet.
Why? Because sponsors/TV brings the money and they arent sufficiently interested yet.

* The prize funds in EPTCs is going up slightly next season [7ok € vs 50k €] which will help somewhat. APTC/UK PTC still 50k £.
Still not good enough but I hope it can increase year on year.

Monique wrote:

kenneth79 wrote:What if they had played down to the last 16 in Sheffield and held over Robbos last 32 match to Aus. Would that have made it sustainable for the players?

No it wouldn't have. Even the runner-up, Mark Williams didn't make much of it, less than a PTC win before deducting his expenses.

yes it would work

theyd pay less to the last 32 guys as they wouldnt have travel expenses to Australia to pay for

plus the draw would be flatter too, the 16 who went wouldnt be out of pocket

Wild WC wrote:

kenneth79 wrote:Some thoughts

* The interest among fans in Europe [many viewers on ES even here in Norway] hasnt translated to money rich tournaments yet.
Why? Because sponsors/TV brings the money and they arent sufficiently interested yet.

* The prize funds in EPTCs is going up slightly next season [7ok € vs 50k €] which will help somewhat. APTC/UK PTC still 50k £.
Still not good enough but I hope it can increase year on year.

thats the key phrase "YET" but unless its tried theres no hope in hell of that YET Being translated to loads of moneyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Oh I agree. In 5 years time I think It will be possible with at least 3 rankers in continental Europe, but the key to that is to get sponsors to fork out more money.

Lets be realistic people. Barry Hearn always said he wanted to make snooker a global sport. Coupled with the lack of interest from Sky and ITV outside shot clocks and the BBC's dwindling interest and ask what exactly Hearn is expected to do?
You cannot force UK broadcasters to take on tournaments knowing that not enough people will watch, there is a reason the Grand Prix has been axed and the UK cut in half virtually. The audience for snooker in the UK, outside the triple crown tournaments just is not there.
I've already said Brazil and Australia are a nonsense. They are, but they have people willing to invest in snooker. If the interest from Europe is so high, why is there only one continental European ranker? Why are China prepared to put on 5 fully funded rankers, and Europe can only manage one?
Or is Hearn expected to ignore other countries, hope that Europe can get enough money together to get on another full ranker and watch the sport go completely to China?
He's doing exactly what the players asked him to do. Putting on more snooker.

Alpha wrote:Lets be realistic people. Barry Hearn always said he wanted to make snooker a global sport. Coupled with the lack of interest from Sky and ITV outside shot clocks and the BBC's dwindling interest and ask what exactly Hearn is expected to do?
You cannot force UK broadcasters to take on tournaments knowing that not enough people will watch, there is a reason the Grand Prix has been axed and the UK cut in half virtually. The audience for snooker in the UK, outside the triple crown tournaments just is not there.
I've already said Brazil and Australia are a nonsense. They are, but they have people willing to invest in snooker. If the interest from Europe is so high, why is there only one continental European ranker? Why are China prepared to put on 5 fully funded rankers, and Europe can only manage one?
Or is Hearn expected to ignore other countries, hope that Europe can get enough money together to get on another full ranker and watch the sport go completely to China?
He's doing exactly what the players asked him to do. Putting on more snooker.

These were exactly my points above also, but Monique chose not to answer them. I think snooker have a large core interest in fans in Europe but not where it matters ie. sponsors/broadcasters the prime financer of events.

kenneth79 wrote:

Alpha wrote:Lets be realistic people. Barry Hearn always said he wanted to make snooker a global sport. Coupled with the lack of interest from Sky and ITV outside shot clocks and the BBC's dwindling interest and ask what exactly Hearn is expected to do?
You cannot force UK broadcasters to take on tournaments knowing that not enough people will watch, there is a reason the Grand Prix has been axed and the UK cut in half virtually. The audience for snooker in the UK, outside the triple crown tournaments just is not there.
I've already said Brazil and Australia are a nonsense. They are, but they have people willing to invest in snooker. If the interest from Europe is so high, why is there only one continental European ranker? Why are China prepared to put on 5 fully funded rankers, and Europe can only manage one?
Or is Hearn expected to ignore other countries, hope that Europe can get enough money together to get on another full ranker and watch the sport go completely to China?
He's doing exactly what the players asked him to do. Putting on more snooker.

These were exactly my points above also, but Monique chose not to answer them. I think snooker have a large core interest in fans in Europe but not where it matters ie. sponsors/broadcasters the prime financer of events.

That's just it, we're forever hearing how much of an audience for snooker there is in continental Europe, but the prize money for the EPTC's and the German Masters is hardly mind blowing. There's no point waiting for Europe.

Wild WC wrote:Monique

seriously how far away from the UK Should really not be a issue what Next play the Aussie Backed Open in Chigwell ???

You know that distance is not the problem here, dont pretend you dont. The high expense level, the tax situation and the poor prize money all combine to make it financially unfeasible.
Waits for comment on the good of the sport.

Part of the answer is for Hearn to stop criticizing the players with the comments like "tell that to the miners who go down the mines". Its not anywhere near the same thing they, the players are on about. They want a properly constructed calendar, they want a prize fund that at least is a break even expenses wise if losing early. If they now have to pay for flights then have the sense to realise that its a shop around for prices for the players and not the easy block booking that the association did at tournaments. Offer them advice on how to do this, especially on in country ( china, thailand) booking without getting ripped off by the airlines and their mryiad of conditions that seem to apply on a. SEAT by seat basis. All of which requires time, which gets less between qualifiers. These are all valid concerns so dont come back with any of the hearns not a baby sitter crap. I know this but as a organization he has a duty to the players too.

Alpha wrote:

kenneth79 wrote:

Alpha wrote:Lets be realistic people. Barry Hearn always said he wanted to make snooker a global sport. Coupled with the lack of interest from Sky and ITV outside shot clocks and the BBC's dwindling interest and ask what exactly Hearn is expected to do?
You cannot force UK broadcasters to take on tournaments knowing that not enough people will watch, there is a reason the Grand Prix has been axed and the UK cut in half virtually. The audience for snooker in the UK, outside the triple crown tournaments just is not there.
I've already said Brazil and Australia are a nonsense. They are, but they have people willing to invest in snooker. If the interest from Europe is so high, why is there only one continental European ranker? Why are China prepared to put on 5 fully funded rankers, and Europe can only manage one?
Or is Hearn expected to ignore other countries, hope that Europe can get enough money together to get on another full ranker and watch the sport go completely to China?
He's doing exactly what the players asked him to do. Putting on more snooker.

These were exactly my points above also, but Monique chose not to answer them. I think snooker have a large core interest in fans in Europe but not where it matters ie. sponsors/broadcasters the prime financer of events.

That's just it, we're forever hearing how much of an audience for snooker there is in continental Europe, but the prize money for the EPTC's and the German Masters is hardly mind blowing. There's no point waiting for Europe.

The prize money for the German Masters is similar to the Welsh Open and it's a comparatively new tournament, with only 2 years existence and over only 5 days, and it will be more next season. That's not exactly bad. As for the EPTCs they have the same sponsors partners as the PTCs so you wonder why the prize money was lower.
China in one country, nearly as big as the whole European continent - 50 countries - and with twice its population. Is it so surprising that they have bigger resources than individual European countries? They have and it's only logical for Hearn to want and invest there.

And yes there is an audience for snooker in Europe. Have you seen how full the Tempodrom was? Do you know that we had over 1500 persons for every session in Antwerp? That's more than anything you have in the UK. And in addition we are ready to travel to watch snooker while some on this forum regularly moan about this or that tournament being "too far" to go to it. In Antwerp people had come in numbers from Germany, France, The Netherlands and even further away.

the China prize funds aint great either Monique

sure theyve bumped up the prizes for this coming season, well mainly the winners funds but the money is still dire considering the so called snooker boom in the East.

one question we have to ask here too is this...........

has Hearn gave up on the UK ???


is there no way of getting Sky and ITV involved in proper snooker??


why when snookers booming, is the game dying on its bottom in the UK in terms of sponsors, events etc, even though clearly the general publin in UK are more into snooker again???

And yes there is an audience for snooker in Europe. Have you seen how full the Tempodrom was? Do you know that we had over 1500 persons for every session in Antwerp? That's more than anything you have in the UK. And in addition we are ready to travel to watch snooker while some on this forum regularly moan about this or that tournament being "too far" to go to it. In Antwerp people had come in numbers from Germany, France, The Netherlands and even further away.[/quote]

That's all very impressive, but it doesn't explain the lack of European sponsors or prize money.

Wild WC wrote:Snooky

ive seen people getting cripled by Silicosis on a minimum wage with kids to suport Your telling me its not the same thing.

Its not, you and hearn are comparing against people who were never brought up with any intentions of going down the mines to work. They were brought up in a completly different environment. And for the record i have the greatest of respect for those who did.

Witz78 wrote:the China prize funds aint great either Monique

sure theyve bumped up the prizes for this coming season, well mainly the winners funds but the money is still dire considering the so called snooker boom in the East.

I know that Witz. My point was that people here moan about the prize money and sponsors in Europe, where snooker isn't as developed and part of the culture (yet) as it is in China, where there aren't yet local top players - maybe Luca will be the first - and where individual countries are nowhere near the size, population or economical power of China. So It's hardly surprising.
And it's hardly surprising that the prize money isn't great in Australia neither. The main differences though are geographical proximity, more reasonable tax levels that still allow players to get something out of it in Europe, but not in Australia, plus the fact that Eurosport is an established broadcaster willing to show nearly carpet coverage of snooker even if it's not perfect (commentary is very poor in some languages, schedules are not always respected etc…)
Because of that, until resources grow, efforts should focus on China and mainland Europe for now because it's where it has the best chances to develop at a sustainable cost with limited risks, for the players and for the authorities.

snooky147 wrote:

Wild WC wrote:Snooky

ive seen people getting cripled by Silicosis on a minimum wage with kids to suport Your telling me its not the same thing.

Its not, you and hearn are comparing against people who were never brought up with any intentions of going down the mines to work. They were brought up in a completly different environment. And for the record i have the greatest of respect for those who did.

This quote by Hearn is crass populism. It's extremely hard to work in the mines and I have the uttermost respect for those who do it. I couldn't do it. But then, they almost certainly couldn't do my former job (and no I won't elaborate). The same is true for snooker players: it was not given to them overnight. They became top players through thousands of hours and millions of balls in practice from a very early age for most. And even if they loved it, they still had to put the work in, day after day, often after their school duties, during evenings and week-ends, when most of the kids their age were having fun with their mates or chatting up the girls. Talent isn't enough. There is a lot of hard work involved.

Witz78 wrote:one question we have to ask here too is this...........

has Hearn gave up on the UK ???


is there no way of getting Sky and ITV involved in proper snooker??


why when snookers booming, is the game dying on its bottom in the UK in terms of sponsors, events etc, even though clearly the general publin in UK are more into snooker again???

This is what baffles me the most. Surely Hearn has tried his best to achieve this but he cant force them at gunpoint to put snooker on. Especially that there isnt any pro snooker at all in Scotland with them having so many world class players is the biggest mystery of all.