Speed it up ...

I hope McLeod and Harold contest the world final

jojo wrote:gj i wasnt talking about you i was talking about monique i know you a mature one not blinkered can speak honestly monique on the other hand it like someone stuck a pin up his bum when anything might be suggested for anti ronnie or pro ronnie either directly or indirectly

Phew! I'm safe... I'm a she

Now jojo if you were to follow my posts you would know a few things like

- I have certain opinions about how the game should be played - we all have - and gamesmanship has no place in it. That is an opinion I have always had and it's not linked to Ronnie in any way as wild says (thanks wild). The very first post I ever did about this subject was on TSF and it was about the Cater v Selby quarter final in the 2007 WC.
- I like debate and contrary to some, I don't resort to insults when people disagree with me or me with them. I try to see their point of view and I try to explain my point of view. I expect the same from others. I have no problem to agree to disagree and - again contrary to others - I don't become "personal" when debates derail.
- If I'm just an all and out Ronnie fangirl, then I'm a strange kind of one. I have been in many tournaments over the last years, traveling abroad (I'm Belgian), taking (loads of) pictures, recording interviews, providing scores for various forums, including this one. And I've done it on my own expenses and for the love of this game. In many of those tournaments, Ronnie wasn't there and I knew he wouldn't be there. I was in Dublin last week and BTW it's my pictures that the WSA was using for this tournament. I'm probably one of the very few who is bothered to take pictures and promote the lower ranked players.
- I'm also a members of WLBSA board (as their official photographer) and again probably the only one photographer who is bothered to follow and promote the Ladie's circuit.
- Yes, my favourite player is Ronnie. I'm taking care of his Web site. He's my favourite player because I like the way he plays the game and, true, I like him as a person. But I'm also taking care of Ricky Walden's site (Ricky is a lovely guy) and providind pictures for Jack Lisowski site and Grove's site. And I'm a member of "snookered" magazine team.
- Ronnie is not the only player I support. I'm a big, big fan of Mark Williams. I support Ricky Walden, Jack Lisowski, Dominic Dale, Ian McCulloch, Graeme Dott, Martin Gould (bit of an oxymoron this ) and Anthony Hamilton also. And I find Selby extremely interesting although I don't like it when he resorts to overly negative play and bogs his opponent and his own game down (something himself has admitted he tends to do and should address - read his blog).
- Having been backstage a lot over the last years, I've seen a lot of things. Let me just say this: the image that the public has of some players isn't in line with the real person that they are. Some can't move a foot or open their mouth without being scrutinised, analysed and more often than not having things taken out of context and blown out of proportion. Some have been good at building a nice facade that has little to do with their real self. Others, not many, whatever they do, are never on the radars and go on doing things that are much worse, quietly unoticed.

As long as its applied consistently, that will probably be the biggest problem.

Monique wrote:

jojo wrote:gj i wasnt talking about you i was talking about monique i know you a mature one not blinkered can speak honestly monique on the other hand it like someone stuck a pin up his bum when anything might be suggested for anti ronnie or pro ronnie either directly or indirectly

Phew! I'm safe... I'm a she

Now jojo if you were to follow my posts you would know a few things like

- I have certain opinions about how the game should be played - we all have - and gamesmanship has no place in it. That is an opinion I have always had and it's not linked to Ronnie in any way as wild says (thanks wild). The very first post I ever did about this subject was on TSF and it was about the Cater v Selby quarter final in the 2007 WC.
- I like debate and contrary to some, I don't resort to insults when people disagree with me or me with them. I try to see their point of view and I try to explain my point of view. I expect the same from others. I have no problem to agree to disagree and - again contrary to others - I don't become "personal" when debates derail.
- If I'm just an all and out Ronnie fangirl, then I'm a strange kind of one. I have been in many tournaments over the last years, traveling abroad (I'm Belgian), taking (loads of) pictures, recording interviews, providing scores for various forums, including this one. And I've done it on my own expenses and for the love of this game. In many of those tournaments, Ronnie wasn't there and I knew he wouldn't be there. I was in Dublin last week and BTW it's my pictures that the WSA was using for this tournament. I'm probably one of the very few who is bothered to take pictures and promote the lower ranked players.
- I'm also a members of WLBSA board (as their official photographer) and again probably the only one photographer who is bothered to follow and promote the Ladie's circuit.
- Yes, my favourite player is Ronnie. I'm taking care of his Web site. He's my favourite player because I like the way he plays the game and, true, I like him as a person. But I'm also taking care of Ricky Walden's site (Ricky is a lovely guy) and providind pictures for Jack Lisowski site and Grove's site. And I'm a member of "snookered" magazine team.
- Ronnie is not the only player I support. I'm a big, big fan of Mark Williams. I support Ricky Walden, Jack Lisowski, Dominic Dale, Ian McCulloch, Graeme Dott, Martin Gould (bit of an oxymoron this ) and Anthony Hamilton also. And I find Selby extremely interesting although I don't like it when he resorts to overly negative play and bogs his opponent and his own game down (something himself has admitted he tends to do and should address - read his blog).
- Having been backstage a lot over the last years, I've seen a lot of things. Let me just say this: the image that the public has of some players isn't in line with the real person that they are. Some can't move a foot or open their mouth without being scrutinised, analysed and more often than not having things taken out of context and blown out of proportion. Some have been good at building a nice facade that has little to do with their real self. Others, not many, whatever they do, are never on the radars and go on doing things that are much worse, quietly unoticed.

Seems you can't be a fan of Ronnie O'Sullivan AND snooker, (according to some) these days!

As I said earlier, I am a fan of Peter Ebdon, I actually wanted him to win the 2005 and 2006 comps once it got to the semi stage, but for all the drama, to me his match with Ronnie was gamesmanship.

He won that battle but has he actually beaten Ronnie since, because to be honest I think its affected Peter more than Ronnie because Peter used to be pretty fluent and now gets bogged down with this grinder image?

I would like to see this as a reminder by Hearn that 4.1a exists, (though it doesn't read that way) then lets get everyone quicker and, as vodkadiet alluded to, when his boy Davis was winning everything by being methodical snooker was in its heyday.

Monique has gone to EPTC tournaments and to ireland Last week knowing full well Ronnie wont be there she is a fan of snooker first and foremost no doubt about that at all.

Hearn needs to tell referees to punish players who appear to be giving little effort rather than focusing on making players quicken up. I would rather see someone taking ages than seeing someone thrashing the balls around like Quentin Hann used to when he went a few frames behind.

I've just seen this post, and this comment by Hearn. I've skimmed over the posts, but thought I'd give my view. Apologies if what I'm saying repeats what has already been said.

I can understand where Hearn is coming from, we've all seen matches that are really boring. Ebdon vs Dott being the classic example, but we can probably all name other matches that have gone on a long time, to the point of becoming dull. And I can understand he wants to eliminate any 'cheating' by a player taking too long on a shot, to throw off his opponent.

But I'm a little worried by the issue. I don't see it as a referee's job to step in and say; "Look, I think you're taking a little long on this shot." I know Monique is going to jump in and say, "Oh, but it's in the rules." But to be brutally frank, I always thought it's a stupid rule. It's too subjective. The referees have probably all played snooker at some point in their life, but with the highest of respect for them if they were good enough to compete, they would be. I don't like when players argue with referees for too long, it looks like the players are trying to do the referees job. This is a case where it would be the other way around.

Though I have no doubt some people deliberately play slow, knowing another player doesn't like it when they do it, I don't like the rule whereby a referee can decide whether that is what a player is doing. Eventually, the referee is going to be wrong, no matter how straightforward a shot might look. Snooker is all about being 100% mental concentration. The last thing a player needs to hear when he's in the middle of an important match is; "Speed it up, mate. The crowd isn't entertained." I know that'd snake hiss me off.

And maybe I am reading more into this as is being said, but I am worried that Hearn's idea of shorter, quicker matches = entertainment. Yes, he said himself he's not bringing in shot clocks, but he's too clever to charge in immediately and start doing things like that. First it was changing the World Open, where the justification is 'it needs revamping, as the BBC are losing interest', then he brings in shorter matches at the Welsh Open, saying; "Oh, we want all matches on television.' Perfectly justifiable on their own, and not what you'd call a big problem individually. But is he slowly trying to mould snooker into what he finds entertaining? It's certainly something I wonder about, though I doubt many will agree, as Hearn is the golden boy at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of what Barry Hearn has done has been good. The PTCs, for example, have given all players more chance to play and make money. Something they've been begging for. The entrance music thing was a bit odd at first, but I think that adds something. As do those big screens he adds at The Crucible, playing previous years highlights whilst you're sitting in the arena pumps up the excitement, and gets you going. I just think he's got it wrong with this one.

Yes some matches have been slow and boring in the past. And no, I don't particularly relish the idea of an Peter Ebdon vs Rory McLeod match at The Crucible. But in any sport football, boxing, rugby, cricket, whatever sport you follow. Some matches are going to be entertaining, some aren't. We've all seen football matches where the team passes around the midfield without any creativity. I also saw a match where a team were 3-0 up after 18 minutes, and lost 4-3.

I really do think the matches that are what I'd call either exciting, or interesting, outweigh the dull ones by a significant margin. So this seems a bit of an unncessary change. Shouldn't we be more worried about promoting the sport to new fans, pushing the sport into the markets internationally like Germany where it's hitting new popularity. Not announcing to all and sundry; "Sometimes matches are boring, I'll see what I can do."

Sorry, I know I've typed a lot out of this. But I don't think it's a good idea.

TOTALLY AGREE

its not very good advertising of the sport by declaring some players are slow.

from my angle though i dont see it as cheating when players take time over shots i see it as another challenge for players to overcome to try and win matches.

i love the mental part of snooker it really would be a shame if gamesmanship is outlawed.

Wild wrote:TOTALLY AGREE

its not very good advertising of the sport by declaring some players are slow.

from my angle though i dont see it as cheating when players take time over shots i see it as another challenge for players to overcome to try and win matches.

i love the mental part of snooker it really would be a shame if gamesmanship is outlawed.

I don't mind announcing somebody is slow. What are we supposed to do, pretend somebody taking 3-minutes to decide which shot to take is super-speedy?

What I'm against is announcing this style of play is boring. It may be for a lot of people, but not everybody. But it doesn't mean it is for everybody. Different people find different things entertaining or fun. I, for one, hated the Ebdon / Dott final. I went to bed before it ended, which is a very real rarity for me. But, it was a massive match for them two. Some people deal with pressure by slowing the game down a bit. In my opinion, despite me hating it, I can't see how it's a good idea to have the referee going up to the players and going; "Pace it up a bit, lads, hey." Ebdon and Dott weren't having a game down the pub, they didn't have to get home for dinner. This was the final of the World Championship for bucks sake.

We all chat about how we want variety. How shorter formats have their place, how shot clocks have their place, whatever. That's true, they do. But you can't have variety, except for the bits you don't enjoy.

there is variety now though they have the shot clock event joke of a premier league and the other tournament bond won also i know the world open doesnt have a shot clock but that a much shorter format overall
so there is variety

if hearn means what he says and they actually apply the so called rules where players arent allowed to play slow this will be very significant a new dawn for snooker the beginning of the end it will be the way snooker will be heading all speeded up and i for one will stop watching on tv and certainly stop going to the few snooker matches i do go to

i dont mind the variety they have in the mickey mouse tournaments like the premier league and that other tournament bond won but leave the mainstream snooker alone otherwise they will be killing traditional snooker the whole essence of snooker and i say bullocks to that utter bull

what i like about snooker is you can dictate speed of play while you at the table unlike tennis where players keep the other waiting before serving because he knows it would iratate the guy waiting.

people getting their knickers in a twist regarding gamesmanship in snooker but compared to other sports its non existent and yet they still want to iron out what is hardly even a issue.

in football they speeded it up by banning passing the ball back to the keeper.

Sports evolve and snooker will too.

witz snooker and football two completely different games snooker is a static game sometimes more like chess whereas football is more dynamic play never stands still unless of course the ball goes out of play or the referee blow his whistle

jojo wrote:witz snooker and football two completely different games snooker is a static game sometimes more like chess whereas football is more dynamic play never stands still unless of course the ball goes out of play or the referee blow his whistle

your turning into a WildJOANSeye bumboy

and you turning into a monique sex machine ha

jojo wrote:and you turning into a monique sex machine ha

Can't Monique just go to Anne Summers like everybody else?

jojo wrote:and you turning into a monique sex machine ha

Witz78 wrote:in football they speeded it up by banning passing the ball back to the keeper.

Sports evolve and snooker will too.

was you born this idiotic or has it been work in progress ever since.

Football is rubbish today compared to how it was so you can stick that evolving right up your ass

SnookerFan wrote:

jojo wrote:and you turning into a monique sex machine ha

Can't Monique just go to Anne Summers like everybody else?

Monique is a big fan of lingerie

I don't have a problem with players being naturally slow.
I have a problem with gamesmanship. Whatever the form it takes. I'm certain no referee would have thought for a second that the slow play in the Ebdon -Dott final was gamesmanship. It was plain that it wasn't;here were two exhausted men battling for the biggest title and entangled in a missfest. On the other hand it was plain gamesmanship when Selby was taking about a minute over nearly every shot when playing Carter in the last session of their WC quarters in 2007 and it was just as plain when Ebdon was taking ages over straighforward shots against ROS or when he "fainted" when playing Cope in the GP. Those are the cases when section 4.1 of the rule should be enforced.
Either that or scrap it if the decision is that gamesmanship is a legit tactic ... but having a rule and not enforcing it is just not on in my book.
Now IF gamesmaship becomes a legit tactic ... think hard and long about the consequences. Where does it stop if at all?

monique before i didnt mean to be rude to you i apologise i was out of line i can see you a passionate snooker fan and you do a lot of work all for good causes

maybe its my distorted sense of humour or my passionate love for snooker but the gamesmanship part fascinates me snooker 99 per cent in the mind and i love that side of the game along with the faster play too i love the variety

jojo, it's OK. Just that snooker fans come in many shapes and sizes and that's part of what makes it interesting.
I don't mind the mental side of the game, I do appreciate a good clever safety battle, or two, or ten... but I totally disagree with gamesmanship. Again that's me, that's my opinion. Nothing more.

jojo wrote:monique before i didnt mean to be rude to you i apologise i was out of line i can see you a passionate snooker fan and you do a lot of work all for good causes

maybe its my distorted sense of humour or my passionate love for snooker but the gamesmanship part fascinates me snooker 99 per cent in the mind and i love that side of the game along with the faster play too i love the variety

thats the key snooker has more variety than any other sport and people are trying their best to limit it and make it one dimensional.

everything is focused in to speeding it up.....my question is Why ?

Wild wrote:

jojo wrote:monique before i didnt mean to be rude to you i apologise i was out of line i can see you a passionate snooker fan and you do a lot of work all for good causes

maybe its my distorted sense of humour or my passionate love for snooker but the gamesmanship part fascinates me snooker 99 per cent in the mind and i love that side of the game along with the faster play too i love the variety

thats the key snooker has more variety than any other sport and people are trying their best to limit it and make it one dimensional.

everything is focused in to speeding it up.....my question is Why ?

Because, Barry Hearn thinks it's more interesting. Remember, we want to see a show. Not a snooker match.

probably because it has been too much the other way around for far too long. No sport, especially no minority sport can't survive if it doesn't entertain. And whether you like it or not today's society is not adept of slow drawn out affairs.
In the 70th-80th you had some "folklore" and "characters" around. Professionalism has killed that. Nowadays if you want to attract new audience, you have to adapt. It does not mean that you have to change the main core events. But you have to go for "teaser" events in addition to them. Events that promote fun. Then when people are interested and hooked to an extend you can educate them to the full subitilities of the game.

Monique wrote:probably because it has been too much the other way around for far too long. No sport, especially no minority sport can't survive if it doesn't entertain. And whether you like it or not today's society is not adept of slow drawn out affairs.
In the 70th-80th you had some "folklore" and "characters" around. Professionalism has killed that. Nowadays if you want to attract new audience, you have to adapt. It does not mean that you have to change the main core events. But you have to go for "teaser" events in addition to them. Events that promote fun. Then when people are interested and hooked to an extend you can educate them to the full subitilities of the game.

What's that got to do with Hearn telling them to speed it up at The Crucible? Is the Championship of the World your idea of a teaser event?

not at all. And I don't thing they should "speed it up" artifically at the WC. Just that they should apply the rules including section 4.1 in all circumstances. And I don't think BH was meaning anything else. He said no hard rules but use you judgement.

The master of gamesmanship is Ronnie O'Sullivan. He is always using it. He says he is bored whilst playing, he intimidates referees, he uses it in press conferences by insulting future opponents, he has worn towels on his face so as to distract an opponent, he has tried other methods of distracting an opponent whilst they are at the table.

He even tried it against Ebdon in that infamous 2005 world champ match by coming to the table and talking to Ebdon about a touching ball which Ebdon was querying. He then asked a guy in the crowd what the time was to try to upset Ebdon, he also tried staring at Ebdon when Ebdon was sat next to him.

Ronnie O'Sullivan is the master of gamesmanship, however, some are so blinded by love that they fail to see it.

Ebdon done over O'Sullivan well and truly and derailed his career. He has never fully recovered from that night, and never will.

Monique wrote:probably because it has been too much the other way around for far too long. No sport, especially no minority sport can't survive if it doesn't entertain. And whether you like it or not today's society is not adept of slow drawn out affairs.
In the 70th-80th you had some "folklore" and "characters" around. Professionalism has killed that. Nowadays if you want to attract new audience, you have to adapt. It does not mean that you have to change the main core events. But you have to go for "teaser" events in addition to them. Events that promote fun. Then when people are interested and hooked to an extend you can educate them to the full subitilities of the game.

monique

listen to yourself who sais speed = entertainment.

thats just a myth and a wrong myth at that.

and saying today society is not adept of slow drawn affairs is patronizing and virtually saying people cant think for themselves what they like and what they dont.

take Randam and jade for example they started watching snooker post 2006 and the Ebdon v Dott WC Final that was the teaser for Randam.

My favourites to watch would be O'Sullivan, Trump, Selby, Ebdon, Stevens, Williams, Dott...granted e few quick ones but I'm more interested in exciting play and shot selection than speed...

No wild it's not a myth. It's today's reality whether you like it or not. Yes there are exceptions, there always are. But many sports have changed their rules to make things more "dynamic". I'm not sure it's the righ way to go, but it's today's way. Table tennis for instance has shortened sets from 21 to 11 points to win and increased the number of sets. Comebacks are now rare and it's all out attack t gain advantage from the start. I'm not sure I like it but it's how it is.