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Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Tubberlad

I just think Selby has that bit about him. Mentally strong, good all round game. Yes one ranker is not good, but to be honest, the Masters probably means more than your average ranker. People are entitled to disagree, I'm just giving my opinion. If Trump is World number one in five years time, I'll take my hat off to you Witz for tipping it. It's just my opinion that he won't be, my opinions are not gospel obviously though. Selby also has two vry strong World showings to his name.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:
thetubberlad wrote:Trump, for me, has proven nothing. He has disappointed, and one ranking semi-final at this stage is not good enough. Selby punching above his weight now? Nah, he's just a very, very good player, he's that O'Sullivan fears. And yes, he DOES fear him.


Im talking about Selby punching above his weight by winning 2 Masters yet other than his Crucible runners up 3 years ago and QF and SF in last 2 years plus the Welsh Open win nearly 2 and half years ago, he has done little else of note in the rankers. And hes very inconsistent so id say winning arguably the hardest tournament of the lot twice suggests he has punched above his weight. Id also run the wrath of many of yous by suggesting Hunter also punched above his weight by winning the Masters 3 times when you compare this to his ranking tournament record.


theres no doubt Selby record has to have a big red message saying "must do better"

but he is the only player and i include higgins in this that Ronnie hates playing and is very weary of him.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Wildey

Bourne wrote:Bingham, Doherty and Dott don't fear him :)


they got very little to lose.

but Ronnie sees Selby in the same light Alex Higgins saw Steve Davis 30 years ago.

the guy thats in danger of taking over.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Bourne

wildJONESEYE wrote:
Bourne wrote:Bingham, Doherty and Dott don't fear him :)


they got very little to lose.

but Ronnie sees Selby in the same light Alex Higgins saw Steve Davis 30 years ago.

the guy thats in danger of taking over.

Exactly, that's what Selby has to guard against. He can raise his game against the better players (not every time mind) but he's lost to a lot of guys early in tournaments when he's been comfortable favourite to progress, that's a problem.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Witz78

Bourne wrote:Bingham, Doherty and Dott don't fear him :)


Exactly, for that reason i say the fact Selby raises his game V Ronnie means hes either punching above his weight when he beats him yet consistently struggles against lesser players (no offence Bingham, Dott, Doherty) or is simply lazy and unprofessional in that he doesnt fully focus for the non big matches.

Or it could just mean hes the new Ebdon....

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Tubberlad

My opinion? Selby is the best player in the World right now, but needs to learn how to close out ranking events, which I expect him to do in time. World Championship 2010 was a big missed opportunity, I don't think there's any way he would have lost to Robertson in the final it pains me to say. Dott was just too sticky in the semi-final. I agree he has to up his game in terms of consistency, he's a man posessed against O'Sullivan, he just needs to motivate himself against lesser players (excuse the term).

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:
wildJONESEYE wrote:fair point <ok>


almost simultaneous and identical replies from me and Bourne <cool>

fair point to both of you.

players i expect more from this season
Murphy
Selby
Trump
Hendry (but thats a wet dream <laugh> )

i think the PTC will help selby more than anyone he can get the hoover going in to overdrive if he gets on a run.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Monique

How anyone can back Ding after his melt down earlier this month is beyond me. I watched the first session: both players were actually playing poorly, Ding having some run of the balls also, and Ding was obviously under pressure playing in his home town. I haven't watched the second session yet but I expect that Murphy just woke up and that was it...
As for Mark Selby he's certainly an better player than his results show. He's also a player who's game is highly creative and often diverts from the "by the book" shot selection. Such players are less consistent than players who's game mainly rely on technical excellence and fairly "routine" by the book shot selection. Creativity is not something you can acquire or hone by drill practice. It's also not the type of game you can turn on at will like a tap.
At the risk of being dunged, I think Ronnie is right in his assesment of Mark's game: he does not have the type of game that builds you a big palmares because of its inconsistency and in many ways they are very similar. Both thrive in big occasions, both are capable to play at the highest level under extreme pressure at times, both seem to need tough challenges to get them at their best, and both tend to fall flat after demanding matches. I agree that there was a part of sour grapes in that comment just after the Masters, but before the WC Ronnie was asked again what he thought about Mark Selby and again he said that inconsistency could prevent him to achieve at the highest level. But then he added with a shrug and a smile that with that same type of game it was still a surprise to him that he had managed to win 3 WC... so cleary, by the body language, it was a "take this with a big grain of salt" comment.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Wildey

monique believes me if Ronnie didnt think much of mark's game he wouldnt say anything.

ive seen it all before its a ploy to undermine selbys confidence the longer Ronnie can keep him down the better.

he is very weary of how great a player selby potentially is yes his results not been great but his greatest game is what Ronnie sees as something special but selby consistency reaching that state is whats letting him down.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Monique

wildJONESEYE wrote:monique believes me if Ronnie didnt think much of mark's game he wouldnt say anything.

ive seen it all before its a ploy to undermine selbys confidence the longer Ronnie can keep him down the better.

he is very weary of how great a player selby potentially is yes his results not been great but his greatest game is what Ronnie sees as something special but selby consistency reaching that state is whats letting him down.


Of course he values Selby's game! I never doubt that. And it's what Ronnie says in a way: Selby is very similar to himself and inconsistent for the same reasons. Ronnie is never confident in his own game, he lost that confidence some 17 years ago for reasons not related to snooker, he very rarely expects himself to perform ... so if he thinks Mark is like him ... well ... he doesn't expect Mark neither.
It's common in humans to value/envy what you don't have. Ronnie sees consistency as the big thing, and it is important but it isn't the alpha and omega of snooker, he regularly tips the likes of Ding and Murphy to win events because he sees them as consistent players, and they haven't won that much particularly in the last years innit?

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Casey

thetubberlad wrote:Trump, for me, has proven nothing. He has disappointed, and one ranking semi-final at this stage is not good enough. Selby punching above his weight now? Nah, he's just a very, very good player, he's that O'Sullivan fears. And yes, he DOES fear him.


Not sure how Trump can be criticized for not achieving at 20 whilst it took Selby until he was 24/25 to win a tournament. Also Selby was 23 before he hit the top 16, by that standard Trump has another 3 to be on par.

As for who will be at the top in 5 years time –

1. Ding
2. Allen
3. Trump

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Casey

How anyone can back Ding after his melt down earlier this month is beyond me. I watched the first session: both players were actually playing poorly, Ding having some run of the balls also, and Ding was obviously under pressure playing in his home town. I haven't watched the second session yet but I expect that Murphy just woke up and that was it...


How can anybody think that will be even close to relevant to this season? He is UK champion and won more ranking points than anybody else last year. Losing 7 in a row to Shaun Murphy will do him no harm in the long run. It happens in sport, if it had been in a big event like the worlds or UK it might have made a difference.

I bet in practise the top pros lose a string of frames against each other all the time. Ding will be a major force in the next few years, even more so now that John and Ronnie are in decline.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Rocket_ron

case_master wrote:
How anyone can back Ding after his melt down earlier this month is beyond me. I watched the first session: both players were actually playing poorly, Ding having some run of the balls also, and Ding was obviously under pressure playing in his home town. I haven't watched the second session yet but I expect that Murphy just woke up and that was it...


How can anybody think that will be even close to relevant to this season? He is UK champion and won more ranking points than anybody else last year. Losing 7 in a row to Shaun Murphy will do him no harm in the long run. It happens in sport, if it had been in a big event like the worlds or UK it might have made a difference.

I bet in practise the top pros lose a string of frames against each other all the time. Ding will be a major force in the next few years, even more so now that John and Ronnie are in decline.

case :wave:

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Bourne

You can't say Ronnie's in decline in front of Monique :hmm:

Spot on though, can't believe people take those exho tournaments very seriously at all. They might be relevant to the winners, that bit of confidence before the season but for the losers it shouldn't matter at all, if anything it's a positive for a player to see where they need to improve, to iron out errors. For such a top player like Ding who doesn't have many weaknesses, it won't be a problem.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Casey

Exactly, he lost in the final last year 6-0 and then went on and had the best season of his professional career.
When Ding first burst onto the scene I wasn’t a fan, but over the last couple of years he has lightened up a lot, shown he has a good personality and now I am a fan…apart from when he is playing Hendo and Allen of course ;)

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Wildey

Bourne wrote:You can't say Ronnie's in decline in front of Monique :hmm:

Spot on though, can't believe people take those exho tournaments very seriously at all. They might be relevant to the winners, that bit of confidence before the season but for the losers it shouldn't matter at all, if anything it's a positive for a player to see where they need to improve, to iron out errors. For such a top player like Ding who doesn't have many weaknesses, it won't be a problem.

those are not exhibitions its all relevant to next time Ding leading 8-2 he might get the jitters he didn't before he might here whispers in the crowd etc.....you got to put your foot on players throats in all competition and kill them.

winning becomes a habit the same as losing you start losing from well in front it gets cancerous.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Wildey

case_master wrote:Exactly, he lost in the final last year 6-0 and then went on and had the best season of his professional career.
When Ding first burst onto the scene I wasn’t a fan, but over the last couple of years he has lightened up a lot, shown he has a good personality and now I am a fan…apart from when he is playing Hendo and Allen of course ;)


case losing when you dont get much chances is easy to accept but losing from well in front takes it toll.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Bourne

wildJONESEYE wrote:
case_master wrote:Exactly, he lost in the final last year 6-0 and then went on and had the best season of his professional career.
When Ding first burst onto the scene I wasn’t a fan, but over the last couple of years he has lightened up a lot, shown he has a good personality and now I am a fan…apart from when he is playing Hendo and Allen of course ;)


case losing when you dont get much chances is easy to accept but losing from well in front takes it toll.

In a big tournament ... yes. In this, no. Can't honestly believe you think it'll make an atom's worth of difference in the UK for example if he's 8-2 ahead, totally different situations altogether. Ding won't let his guard down in that situation, but he can afford to in an exho.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Casey

He will be more annoyed at losing the extra 25k for winning the event than anything else.

Look any pro can lose 6 or 7 on the bounce against another top pro, it happens. I am sure last year he was more embarrassed at being white washed in front of his home crowd and failing to give them a show. There are two many tournaments this year for him to dwell on this, he has made 5 finals in 12 months, the guy is really pushing in the right direction and he is the perfect age to boot.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Wildey

you cant afford in nothing because next time hes a few frames infront it will give players confidence in knowing he can fold although to be fair murphy did step it up.

you got to just finish a player off ASAP then you got the uper hand in the next encounter ding has left murphy boss him.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Monique

rocket_ron wrote:
case_master wrote:
How anyone can back Ding after his melt down earlier this month is beyond me. I watched the first session: both players were actually playing poorly, Ding having some run of the balls also, and Ding was obviously under pressure playing in his home town. I haven't watched the second session yet but I expect that Murphy just woke up and that was it...


How can anybody think that will be even close to relevant to this season? He is UK champion and won more ranking points than anybody else last year. Losing 7 in a row to Shaun Murphy will do him no harm in the long run. It happens in sport, if it had been in a big event like the worlds or UK it might have made a difference.

I bet in practise the top pros lose a string of frames against each other all the time. Ding will be a major force in the next few years, even more so now that John and Ronnie are in decline.

case :wave:


Well I think it's very relevant. Ding has never reached the quarters in Sheffield and he also almost never performs in the chinese rankers over the last years. Murphy in Sheffield was very harsh on the Chinese media for the pressure that is exerted on the young man. You have to be there to believe it: when Ding was about to play the chinese media was like an over-excited bunch of bees. When he lost, I have no idea what they asked or told him, but the burden on Ding was obvious. He was OK with the UK media, he looked like a broken doll with the Chinese. That's what triggered Murphy's rant BTW and good on Shaun.
When Ding lost in Wuxi I was on my way from Berlin to Munich. I left the hotel and he was 5-1 up. I arrived at the Krone Circus (the exo venue) and asked Django Fung, who is chinese himself, about the scores. He answered me this "Well ... Ding was playing in front of his home crowd ... ". "And?" I asked. "He lost." I was taken aback. I said "But he was 5-1 up?". "Yes" , said Django, "and he was 6-2 up and then 8-2 up but he lost 8-9". I probably looked incredulous because Django laughed "She doesn't believe it!". Well in truth I did but hardly and I think his first sentence said it all. Ding can't handle the pressure and as long as he can't handle it, he won't win much.

And @Bourne... first I don't see what Ronnie is doing in this debate, this is about Ding, next I never challenged ROS is in decline. He is and he's the first to admit to it.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Casey

Monique He reached two finals in China last season and the first Chinese event this season. He has also won a ranking event there as a teenager coming from 4-1 down. He has one of the best Chinese records in the top 16…fact.

He will get over it for sure, he has had far greater set backs in his career, he isn’t a 2 time UK champion for nothing.

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Bourne

wildJONESEYE wrote:you cant afford in nothing because next time hes a few frames infront it will give players confidence in knowing he can fold although to be fair murphy did step it up.

you got to just finish a player off ASAP then you got the uper hand in the next encounter ding has left murphy boss him.

Ding lost the first frame of the GP final last season after that 0-6 final loss in the exho, by your logic, he should have been susceptible for losing that match 0-9 ... he took 4 frames in that first session :roll:

Re: My ideal top 16 in 2015

Postby Monique

case_master wrote:Monique He reached two finals in China last season and the first Chinese event this season. He has also won a ranking event there as a teenager coming from 4-1 down. He has one of the best Chinese records in the top 16…fact.

He will get over it for sure, he has had far greater set backs in his career, he isn’t a 2 time UK champion for nothing.


Ding has won 3 rankers as a teenager, so no question he has the game, but then he had no pressure of expectations to deal with at the time.
People usually put the start of his troubles when he lost to Ronnie in the Masters 2007. I think it started in the UK 2006: he was the defending champion and people put a hell of a lot of expectations on him, all the more because he had just been outstanding in the Asian games and he didn't live to those expectations and he had that gloomy look about him in that tournament. Then in the Masters he looked at the top again, he even boasted that he could even play better than that after the semis and he was trashed. It hit him big time. Last season he showed he was able to win again and I honestly thought he was over the "trauma". But his defeat in Wuxi tells me he isn't. It's certainly not that he didn't care, no way, not on his own turf. He crumbled, that's all.
I have nothing against Ding, actually I was very disapointed he lost and lost this way.