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Biggest choke in a World final

1985 Davis
1
4%
1992 White
3
11%
1994 White
10
37%
2000 Stevens
0
No votes
2014 O'Sullivan
12
44%
2017 Higgins
1
4%
other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 27

Biggest choke in a World final

Postby TheRocket

Which one do you consider as the biggest failure/choke from a player in a World final.
Its a tough question so you can vote for two options.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Ash147

They were all massive chokes really. I think everyone will agree that the players who lost those finals should have won them.

This was the state of the finals when each player was dominating, and should have gone on to win.

In 1985 Davis lead 8-0.
In 1992 White lead 14-8.
In 1994 White missed the black off it's spot to win the decider.
In 2000 Stevens lead 13-7.
In 2014 Ronnie lead 8-3 and 10-5.
In 2017 Higgins lead 6-2 and 10-4.

Since I am only allowed to chose two though, I have voted for White in 1994 Ronnie in 2014.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby TheRocket

yeah cant disagree Ash. Its almost impossible to pick one or two out. So my poll isnt really useful.

If I had to choose two I'd say Jimmy and Ronnie in 1994,2014 respectively as well. White had Hendry on the ropes and gifted away his last chance to finally win a World title by missing that sitter of a black.

Ronnie in 2014 was in total control of the match against a weak Selby but suddenly lost the plot from nowhere. Higgins in 2017 was similar but he was older and past his prime. And he showed character by getting to two more World finals.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Ash147

TheRocket wrote:yeah cant disagree Ash. Its almost impossible to pick one or two out. So my poll isnt really useful.

If I had to choose two I'd say Jimmy and Ronnie in 1994,2014 respecitively as well. White had Hendry on the ropes and gifted away his last chance to finally win a World title.

Ronnie in 2014 was in total control of the match against a weak Selby but suddenly lost the plot from nowhere. Higgins in 2017 was similar but he was older and past his prime. And he showed character by getting to two more World finals.


The worst thing about the 2014 loss was how Ronnie seemed to lose the match in one frame. He was in complete control of the match at 10-5, and then suddenly the tables turned on one missed black off the spot. He suddenly capitulated after that one moment, and his head seemed to go instantly. It wasn't as if he wasn't used to winning the WC, having won it the past two years, and had a real tough battle with Hawkins in 2013. It wasn't as if he was afraid of playing Selby in a final, as he had trounced him 10-4 in the Masters earlier that same year. It seemed like all of the work he had done with Dr Peters had just vanished in a single moment, and we'll probably never know what caused that to happen.

Ronnie went from being the King of the Crucible, to a rabbit caught in the headlights, all in a single shot.
Last edited by Ash147 on 20 Aug 2019, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Iranu

Numerically speaking Ronnie’s is the ‘least bad’ but if you were watching it you know that’s not the full story. No way he’d have lost against anybody else.

8-0 is still quite early on in the match (did Taylor come back to 9-7 or something? Amazing that I don’t know off the top of my head. The BBC should do a feature on that final). To really choke a match I think it has to happen in the latter stages or final session.

To lose from 6 frames ahead needing 4/5 frames each... I think I’d have to say either Jimmy or Stevens. I’m not sure how big a choke it was from Stevens as I didn’t watch it. It’s often referred to as a huge choke, though.

It’s weird, I don’t think of 2017 as a choke, really. Not like Ronnie, Jimmy and Stevens anyway. It really seemed like Higgins just... ran out of gas more than anything else. Unlike Ronnie I don’t think it mattered who he was playing beyond Selby’s ability to take

That black from Jimmy... Ronnie’s pink was easier but in context, Jimmy’s black was definitely the biggest choke in terms of a single shot.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Ash147

Jimmy's black was much more significant than Ronnie's pink. Ronnie's head was gone by that point, so the match was effectively over.

I think it would be more apt to compare Jimmy's black to Ronnie's when he was about to go 11-5 up.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Dan-cat

Selby got in Ronnie's head so bad. He only lead 10 - 7 I think at the end of the first day, Selby had played awfully most of the day. Ronnie must have gone to bed that night feeling a lot worse than Selby. Selby probably felt like he was winning.

I dunno if I'd call it a choke. Selby messed the table up so effectively. I remember a Ronnie quote saying 'I couldn't see where the next red and colour were gonna come from everytime I got in.'

Ahhh... multi-session matches. Love them.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Ash147

Dan-cat wrote:Selby got in Ronnie's head so bad. He only lead 10 - 7 I think at the end of the first day, Selby had played awfully most of the day. Ronnie must have gone to bed that night feeling a lot worse than Selby. Selby probably felt like he was winning.

I dunno if I'd call it a choke. Selby messed the table up so effectively. I remember a Ronnie quote saying 'I couldn't see where the next red and colour were gonna come from everytime I got in.'

Ahhh... multi-session matches. Love them.


A mentally strong Ronnie wouldn't be thinking about that though, but his head just seemed to go after missing the black at 10-5. He was only leading 10-7 against Hawkins at the end of the second session in 2013, but he remained strong and went on to get the job done, with arguably more expectation on him to win that match.

The other thing about 2012-2014 Ronnie was that he didn't care about the long tactical exchanges, he actually seemed to be enjoying those. His safety play during that time was some of the best I've seen him play. So for him to suddenly lose the plot after having to play safety, which he should have expected with Selby, just doesn't make that much sense.

There's no reasonable way to explain Ronnie's loss that year, but it was horrible to watch. It was the first time I'd had to switch off a match that Ronnie was in, and at the end of a WC final too, but that fourth session was such difficult viewing.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Johnny Bravo

Ash147 wrote:
Dan-cat wrote:Selby got in Ronnie's head so bad. He only lead 10 - 7 I think at the end of the first day, Selby had played awfully most of the day. Ronnie must have gone to bed that night feeling a lot worse than Selby. Selby probably felt like he was winning.

I dunno if I'd call it a choke. Selby messed the table up so effectively. I remember a Ronnie quote saying 'I couldn't see where the next red and colour were gonna come from everytime I got in.'

Ahhh... multi-session matches. Love them.


A mentally strong Ronnie wouldn't be thinking about that though, but his head just seemed to go after missing the black at 10-5. He was only leading 10-7 against Hawkins at the end of the second session in 2013, but he remained strong and went on to get the job done, with arguably more expectation on him to win that match.

The other thing about 2012-2014 Ronnie was that he didn't care about the long tactical exchanges, he actually seemed to be enjoying those. His safety play during that time was some of the best I've seen him play. So for him to suddenly lose the plot after having to play safety, which he should have expected with Selby, just doesn't make that much sense.

There's no reasonable way to explain Ronnie's loss that year, but it was horrible to watch. It was the first time I'd had to switch off a match that Ronnie was in, and at the end of a WC final too, but that fourth session was such difficult viewing.


Ronnie's loss devastated me. :sad: :crying: :crybye:
Damn u Selbo. :grrr: :wild:

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby D4P

Johnny Bravo wrote:Ronnie's loss devastated me. :sad: :crying: :crybye:
Damn u Selbo. :grrr: :wild:


Ronnie fans will never get over that one. There's just no way to feel OK about it...

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Iranu

D4P wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:Ronnie's loss devastated me. :sad: :crying: :crybye:
Damn u Selbo. :grrr: :wild:


Ronnie fans will never get over that one. There's just no way to feel OK about it...

Yeah, but as a pathetic Selby fan I loved it.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Andre147

Voted 1992. No way should White have lost that Final.

And 1985 is pretty bad one as well. Davis was a winning machibe back in the day, already had won 3 World Titles. How he lost that from 8 nil up is a mystery.

2014 was bad but at 10-7 my hopes were very slim and I expected Selby to mess things up which he effectively did with sucess. But 1992 goes on my biggest choke list.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby KrazeeEyezKilla

A "choke" is much worse when it's someone who never won the world title. For White 1994 was the bigger choke but given the circumstances more acceptable than 1992 when he was completely on top and lost control.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby D4P

Iranu wrote:
D4P wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:Ronnie's loss devastated me. :sad: :crying: :crybye:
Damn u Selbo. :grrr: :wild:


Ronnie fans will never get over that one. There's just no way to feel OK about it...

Yeah, but as a pathetic Selby fan I loved it.


Cocky

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Cloud Strife

D4P wrote:
Iranu wrote:
D4P wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:Ronnie's loss devastated me. :sad: :crying: :crybye:
Damn u Selbo. :grrr: :wild:


Ronnie fans will never get over that one. There's just no way to feel OK about it...

Yeah, but as a pathetic Selby fan I loved it.


Cocky


Pretentious

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby PLtheRef

Iranu wrote:Numerically speaking Ronnie’s is the ‘least bad’ but if you were watching it you know that’s not the full story. No way he’d have lost against anybody else.

8-0 is still quite early on in the match (did Taylor come back to 9-7 or something? Amazing that I don’t know off the top of my head. The BBC should do a feature on that final). To really choke a match I think it has to happen in the latter stages or final session.

To lose from 6 frames ahead needing 4/5 frames each... I think I’d have to say either Jimmy or Stevens. I’m not sure how big a choke it was from Stevens as I didn’t watch it. It’s often referred to as a huge choke, though.

It’s weird, I don’t think of 2017 as a choke, really. Not like Ronnie, Jimmy and Stevens anyway. It really seemed like Higgins just... ran out of gas more than anything else. Unlike Ronnie I don’t think it mattered who he was playing beyond Selby’s ability to take

That black from Jimmy... Ronnie’s pink was easier but in context, Jimmy’s black was definitely the biggest choke in terms of a single shot.


Yep, Davis led 7-0 at the end of the afternoon session, then took the first of the evening, and probably should have gone 9-0 in front but for a missed green. Taylor having recovered the ninth to get back to 8-1, won the last six of the session to get back to 9-7 behind overnight and managed to level at 11-11 and 15-15

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby PLtheRef

I think as perverse as it sounds, this thread poses a great question because there is no doubt that in reality all six finals should have been the won by the runner-up.

Going through them all individually:

1985 - Davis should have been mentally more prepared for any sort of recovery from Taylor. Just 16 months earlier, he had managed to lose the UK Championship Final against Alex Higgins in a decider having led 7-0 at the end of the first session (though Davis did recover from 14-12 behind to take the match to a decider). Then five months later at the Crucible, Davis led Jimmy White 6-1 at the end of the first session and then 12-4 overnight before being hauled to 13-11 going into the final session. Indeed, even after the World Championship Final, Davis nearly managed to surrender a massive lead against Taylor again, in the 1985 Grand Prix Final Davis led 6-1 at the end of the afternoon session, saw Taylor take seven of the next eight frames to lead 8-7 before Davis won 10-9 at a quarter past two in the morning.

That's not to say Davis wasn't capable of making recoveries of his own, in the 1985 UK Championship he managed to overturn a 13-8 deficit going into the last session against Willie Thorne (who should have led 14-8 but for a straightforward blue) managing to win 16-14.


1992 - If there was one of the six Finals where White should have won, it is this one. By his own admission, White says that with a 14-8 margin he allowed his concentration to wander a little, making sure that he remembered who to thank and what to say when the match was still nowhere near won. A major mistake to do in any match, but is only magnified when you get to a world final. White made reference to this one being the one final of the six where he should have gone on and won it. A 14-8 advantage and the chance of being 15-9 in front entering the Final session, surely Hendry would have been buried from there. That being said, Hendry made four 50's and three centuries in the last ten frames of that Final, and outscored White by 501 points in the Final session

1994 - A missed black which would be remembered forever. To be fair to White, although many see this as another huge opportunity, especially given Hendry's injury earlier on in the World Championship, in any deciding frame in a major Final there is the opportunity that a relatively straightforward pot will be missed, the occasion will be magnified when you consider its the World Championship final and that the balls are there at your mercy.

2000 - Although much is said about Stevens holding a significant lead against someone who had previously been beaten comfortably in the Final the year before, its worth acknowledging how well Williams played in those last fourteen frame, breaks of 80, 37, 44, 43, 66, 36, 39 and 67 took Williams to 14-14 at the last interval, and in response to losing seven out of eight frames, Stevens again forged ahead 15-14 with a 120 (his fifth century of that Final) if you want to be uncharitable you could argue that Stevens should have been 14-9 ahead in the penultimate frame of the Monday afternoon.

2014 - A long awaited showdown between O'Sullivan and Selby in a Crucible Final. I can remember remarking on here on the Sunday of that at both 5-3 and 10-7 although O'Sullivan had the most frames, it was Selby who had the lead. An 8-3 margin and 10-5 margin are more than recoverable in a best of 35 frame World Championship Final, but given the way Selby had played (particularly on the Sunday afternoon where he made only two breaks of 30+ and given this was against an O'Sullivan unbeaten at the Crucible in fourteen matches and who had won both his quarter-final against Murphy and his semi-final against Hawkins with a session to spare you would have expected O'Sullivan to have been further clear.

I think there was always a sense that once Selby had it back to 10-7, that there was a chance that the Final could be recovered, and given that he quickly levelled on the Monday and pushed ahead so it proved. The pink was the first sign that the Final was really slipping away from O'Sullivan given how he quickly pressed home his advantage in the final session

2017 - Is a similar story to 2014 - although John Higgins was the second semi to finish, he had wrapped his up by a comfortable 17-8 margin (thereby only needing a single frame from the final session) compared to Selby's tense 17-15 win over Ding. Though Higgins led 6-2 (having won the final five frames of the Sunday afternoon with a 50+ break in all but one with the addition of a 141 total clearance for good measure) and 10-4, Selby's response in the final three frames suggested that a fightback was on the cards - Similar to the 2014 final, Selby took control on the Monday afternoon, winning that 6-1 to lead 13-11 going into the finale.


Judging by those six, I think its got to be 1985 (given Davis' previous experiences') and 1992 (given White allowed himself to lose focus thinking the match was just about won.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby D4P

SnookerFan wrote:Remember when Ronnie missed a pink? :wave:


I've never watched the match, but I gather that this missed pink was a turning point. What happened...?

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby SnookerFan

D4P wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Remember when Ronnie missed a pink? :wave:


I've never watched the match, but I gather that this missed pink was a turning point. What happened...?


He missed a pink.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby D4P

SnookerFan wrote:
D4P wrote:
SnookerFan wrote:Remember when Ronnie missed a pink? :wave:


I've never watched the match, but I gather that this missed pink was a turning point. What happened...?


He missed a pink.


:hatoff:

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Andre147

Ronnie's 2014 choke leading the votes, but I guess this comes from Ronnie fans who like me cant believe he lost that Final.

But objectively, 1992 and 1985 were much worse.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby Badsnookerplayer

I find it strange that Ronnie chokes as he seems to have the most laid back attitude to the game.

If you watch his match against James Cahill, he fights back quite well and at 8-8 he has just the colours to clear and produces the most almighty bottle job on a simple pink. To him, that game would have had far less importance than to Cahill and yet Cahill seemed more assured at the end.

Sports psychology is very easy to the outsider.

Re: Biggest choke in a World final

Postby D4P

Badsnookerplayer wrote:I find it strange that Ronnie chokes as he seems to have the most laid back attitude to the game.

If you watch his match against James Cahill, he fights back quite well and at 8-8 he has just the colours to clear and produces the most almighty bottle job on a simple pink. To him, that game would have had far less importance than to Cahill and yet Cahill seemed more assured at the end.

Sports psychology is very easy to the outsider.


Ronnie's choking seems to be a weird combination of (1) self doubt (which stems more from his personality than it does from his snooker ability, because someone as good at snooker as he is shouldn't really doubt themselves), and (2) not being 100% comfortable with being a dominant player who wins all the time. He prefers to stay out of the limelight and doesn't want all of the attention that comes with winning.

In that sense, much of Ronnie's "choking" is probably better described as "self-sabotaging".