by PLtheRef » 19 Oct 2014 Read
As some will be aware on twitter, Ali Carter's win in the General Cup has led to the discussion as to whether he should be invited into the Champion of Champions tournament which begins a fortnight tomorrow.
Currently according to the World Snooker website, the Champions of Champions list is as follows
1. Ronnie O'Sullivan (Champion of Champions; Masters; Welsh Open)
2. Mark Selby (World Championship; ET1)
3. Neil Robertson (UK Championship; Wuxi Classic)
4. Ding Junhui (German Masters; China Open; AT1)
5. Judd Trump (Championship League Snooker; Australian Goldfields Open)
6. Shaun Murphy (World Open; ET8; ET3)
7. Barry Hawkins (Players Championship Grand Final)
8. Stuart Bingham (Shanghai Masters; AT4)
9. Mark Allen (ET2)
10. Stephen Maguire (Six Red World Championship)
11. Dominic Dale (Shoot Out)
12. Steve Davis (World Seniors)
With just two events to be played out, there will be less than 16 different champions and the shortfall in players will be filled from the World Snooker rankings after the recent Bulgarian Open (ET3) event. The next four highest ranked players not already qualified are:
No.9 Marco Fu
No.11 Ricky Walden
No.12 John Higgins
No.14 Joe Perry
Now which is the second event? Obviously the International will count but I'm not sure which is the other event that World Snooker is referring to?
The question raised is would it be fair on a player who's been allocated a place according to rankings to miss out on the place in the tournament to accommodate Carter?
In the same argument is it worth remembering that if someone not already qualified for the tournament wins the International Championship then the candidate who'd miss out namely Perry would be out of the running anyway.
What are peoples thoughts on the matter? Should Carter be granted entry to the Champion of Champions?
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by Roland » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Yes
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by SnookerFan » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Winning the General Cup gives him more right to be in the COC than somebody who is there just because they are the highest ranked non-champion.
If they were giving him it purely because he'd been ill, that might be another matter.
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by Skullman » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Well, considering his rankings been frozen in some form and he was 13 before the freeze, he could still qualify through ranking regardless of his General Cup win.
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by Wildey » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Personally i dont believe 6 Reds, Shootout or World Seniors should be there either but they are so Carter has as much right as those
My List would be
1. Ronnie O'Sullivan (Champion of Champions; Masters; Welsh Open)
2. Mark Selby (World Championship; ET1)
3. Neil Robertson (UK Championship; Wuxi Classic)
4. Ding Junhui (German Masters; China Open; AT1)
5. Judd Trump (Championship League Snooker; Australian Goldfields Open)
6. Shaun Murphy (World Open; ET8; ET3)
7. Barry Hawkins (Players Championship Grand Final)
8. Stuart Bingham (Shanghai Masters; AT4)
9. Mark Allen (ET2)
then Working backwards the next 7 players that has won proper main tour events
10 Marco Fu (Aussie Open 2013/14)
11 Liang Wenbo (AT 3 2013/14)
12 Ju Reti (AT 2 2013/14)
13 Ricky Walden (ET3 2013/14)
14 Mark Williams (ET2 2013/14)
15 Joe Perry (AT 1 2013/14)
16 John Higgins (ET 1 2013/14)
That way the last 16 players that has won proper Main tour Events gets in.
however seing as thats not the case and they are going with Rankings Ali Carter ranking should have been frozen at 13 and that Frozen ranking position should elivate him ahead of Joe Perry.
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by Wildey » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Just noticed in my way of doing it Higgins, Perry, Walden and Fu would be in and the 3 bullocks event winners Maguire, Davis and Dale would be out replaced by Liang Wenbo, Ju Reti and Mark Williams.
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by Dan-cat » 20 Oct 2014 Read
If World Snooker really did freeze his ranking at 13 then he should be in. Looking forward to their announcement. I also heard a rumour that Doug Mountjoy may be offered a place, because he won an over 70s tourny in wales the other day with a top break of 29
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by Wildey » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Dan-cat wrote:If World Snooker really did freeze his ranking at 13 then he should be in. Looking forward to their announcement. I also heard a rumour that Doug Mountjoy may be offered a place, because he won an over 70s tourny in wales the other day with a top break of 29
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by Roland » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Winning the General Cup has nothing to do with Carter getting a spot in the COC, it's just proof that he's back and more determined than ever therefore as an entrant in the COC would stand a good chance of doing very well. Winning the General Cup has made his inclusion in the COC an issue because there are still 4 places up for grabs and had he not fallen ill he would have been there anyway.
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by Clara8633 » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Dan-cat wrote:If World Snooker really did freeze his ranking at 13 then he should be in. Looking forward to their announcement. I also heard a rumour that Doug Mountjoy may be offered a place, because he won an over 70s tourny in wales the other day with a top break of 29
That is one of the most preposterous things I've ever heard xD
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by PLtheRef » 20 Oct 2014 Read
Wildey wrote:Personally i dont believe 6 Reds, Shootout or World Seniors should be there either but they are so Carter has as much right as those
My List would be
1. Ronnie O'Sullivan (Champion of Champions; Masters; Welsh Open)
2. Mark Selby (World Championship; ET1)
3. Neil Robertson (UK Championship; Wuxi Classic)
4. Ding Junhui (German Masters; China Open; AT1)
5. Judd Trump (Championship League Snooker; Australian Goldfields Open)
6. Shaun Murphy (World Open; ET8; ET3)
7. Barry Hawkins (Players Championship Grand Final)
8. Stuart Bingham (Shanghai Masters; AT4)
9. Mark Allen (ET2)
then Working backwards the next 7 players that has won proper main tour events
10 Marco Fu (Aussie Open 2013/14)
11 Liang Wenbo (AT 3 2013/14)
12 Ju Reti (AT 2 2013/14)
13 Ricky Walden (ET3 2013/14)
14 Mark Williams (ET2 2013/14)
15 Joe Perry (AT 1 2013/14)
16 John Higgins (ET 1 2013/14)
That way the last 16 players that has won proper Main tour Events gets in.
however seing as thats not the case and they are going with Rankings Ali Carter ranking should have been frozen at 13 and that Frozen ranking position should elivate him ahead of Joe Perry.
Just playing devils advocate here, but those three tournaments were sanctioned by World Snooker, whereas as far as I am aware the General Cup wasn't.
I think what the 2013 and 2014 qualifications have shown with several going to the players in the ranking list that 16 is too many for the Competition and it would be much better to hold a tournament with either 8 or 12 players.
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by TheSaviour » 21 Oct 2014 Read
Yes he should. I am delighted he´s back. A quite obviously he is a tremendeously gifted player.
Also good to see Steve Davis will be there! World seniors champion.
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by SnookerFan » 21 Oct 2014 Read
Roland wrote:Winning the General Cup has nothing to do with Carter getting a spot in the COC, it's just proof that he's back and more determined than ever therefore as an entrant in the COC would stand a good chance of doing very well. Winning the General Cup has made his inclusion in the COC an issue because there are still 4 places up for grabs and had he not fallen ill he would have been there anyway.
Surely, it's the opposite. However small the tournament, he is now a champion. They prefer to let people in with trophies, than those without.
Doesn't the fact that he's won something, however cack, remove the debate about whether he should be there?
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by TheSaviour » 22 Oct 2014 Read
In general, I very much support the idea and the concept of the wild cards. Ten years or so In Austria where Alpine Skiing is a huge sport and thing, parents told their kids to eat their vegetables because Bode Miller is eating his. And it worked. Bode was so popular there.
If there are a genuinely very popular sport stars, then take an advantage of it.
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by Wildey » 22 Oct 2014 Read
TheSaviour wrote:In general, I very much support the idea and the concept of the wild cards. Ten years or so In Austria where Alpine Skiing is a huge sport and thing, parents told their kids to eat their vegetables because Bode Miller is eating his. And it worked. Bode was so popular there.
If there are a genuinely very popular sport stars, then take an advantage of it.
Hate Wild Cards with a passion but i understand the need for them in New countries but thats about it China or the World Snooker tour should not have any Wild Cards and earn their place on merit.
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by Roland » 22 Oct 2014 Read
SnookerFan wrote:Roland wrote:Winning the General Cup has nothing to do with Carter getting a spot in the COC, it's just proof that he's back and more determined than ever therefore as an entrant in the COC would stand a good chance of doing very well. Winning the General Cup has made his inclusion in the COC an issue because there are still 4 places up for grabs and had he not fallen ill he would have been there anyway.
Surely, it's the opposite. However small the tournament, he is now a champion. They prefer to let people in with trophies, than those without.
Doesn't the fact that he's won something, however cack, remove the debate about whether he should be there?
No because it's not World Snooker sanctioned. They were apparently thinking of having ex-world champions as top ups which I have to say I like the idea of. The fact is though the rules are not set in stone and it's an invitational event and I'm sure ITV will want Ali Carter in the event, as will the majority of snooker fans, and if they want it they will probably make it happen.
The fact that Carter was promised his ranking be frozen (in a more ambiguous way) though has opened the door to getting him in through the rankings top up list. So therefore it's possible to get him into the event without having to make it obvious the rules are being gently massaged to find him a spot.
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by Skullman » 22 Oct 2014 Read
Or if Fu, Walden or Higgins win either of the remaining two events. Basically as long as anyone ranked lower than Carter doesn't win either of the events, he's in.
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by Roland » 22 Oct 2014 Read
I've got it down to Ding, Bingham or Walden needing to win AT2 in order for Carter to get a COC spot. This is assuming with quite a lot of confidence the International will be won by a player already through to the COC.
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by vodkadiet » 23 Oct 2014 Read
The Champion of Champions places should be only given to players winning meaningful events. The General Cup is a piece of junk.
If a player wins a full ranking event or The Masters then that should be the only criteria. If only 6 players win all the events, then there should only be 6 players taking part.
I heard that Craig Steadman won a pro-am at the Neasden snooker centre last Tuesday night, picking up £300 for his night's work, let's have him in The Champions Cup. Maybe he could into group C with Ali Carter?
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by Andre147 » 23 Oct 2014 Read
vodkadiet wrote:The Champion of Champions places should be only given to players winning meaningful events. The General Cup is a piece of junk.
If a player wins a full ranking event or The Masters then that should be the only criteria. If only 6 players win all the events, then there should only be 6 players taking part.
I heard that Craig Steadman won a pro-am at the Neasden snooker centre last Tuesday night, picking up £300 for his night's work, let's have him in The Champions Cup. Maybe he could into group C with Ali Carter?
Yeah right
So if a player somehow won all the ranking events and another player won the Masters then it should only be 2 players competing right?
I do agree the criteria has gone a bit silly, but it's to reward winners, players like Ju Reti who has won an Asian PTC has more right to enter it than Steve Davis for instance who won the Seniors event. And it's not just the ranking events and the Masters, you're forgeting this very same event, the player who wins it, in this case Ronnie last season, has the right to enter it as defending champ. So if Ronnie only won this event last season, he would have been in it this year anyway, but he won the Masters and Welsh Open
Last edited by
Andre147 on 23 Oct 2014, edited 1 time in total.
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by AC or LT? » 23 Oct 2014 Read
Yes, on the provision that his frozen ranking would've allowed him to anyway.
The general cup is irrelevant.
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by vodkadiet » 23 Oct 2014 Read
The clue is in the title, Champion of Champions. If only 4 players have won all the events they are the only ones who should be allowed to play. Otherwise you could have get a situation where someone whose best result was reaching the Welsh Open semis winning the Champion of Champions.
How the hell have 8 out of 11 posters voted that Carter plays? Is this just based on sympathy? And while we are on the subject of Carter, I thought he said he was going to retire from snooker at 30, to fly planes? And they criticised Nick Clegg for going back on tuition fees!
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by Andre147 » 23 Oct 2014 Read
vodkadiet wrote:The clue is in the title, Champion of Champions. If only 4 players have won all the events they are the only ones who should be allowed to play. Otherwise you could have get a situation where someone whose best result was reaching the Welsh Open semis winning the Champion of Champions.
How the hell have 8 out of 11 posters voted that Carter plays? Is this just based on sympathy? And while we are on the subject of Carter, I thought he said he was going to retire from snooker at 30, to fly planes? And they criticised Nick Clegg for going back on tuition fees!
Despite what Carter went through, if he doesn't play in it then so be it, no sumpathy here whatsoever. Yeah a player could win this event without haveing won an event last season or this season until now. What I fail to see is World Snooker has more room for choice, I gave the Ju Reti example who won an Asian PTC last season, for me he has every right to be in it because he's a winner. I guess the remaining places will be decided on ranking positions, in this case Carter may get a place as his ranking was frozen.
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by Wildey » 23 Oct 2014 Read
Cancer or illness has no relevance to a snooker tournament at all and inclusion has to be on merit.
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by Clara8633 » 24 Oct 2014 Read
vodkadiet wrote:The clue is in the title, Champion of Champions. If only 4 players have won all the events they are the only ones who should be allowed to play. Otherwise you could have get a situation where someone whose best result was reaching the Welsh Open semis winning the Champion of Champions.
How the hell have 8 out of 11 posters voted that Carter plays? Is this just based on sympathy? And while we are on the subject of Carter, I thought he said he was going to retire from snooker at 30, to fly planes? And they criticised Nick Clegg for going back on tuition fees!
If only winners are allowed to play, what if 5 people have won all the events?
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by Wildey » 24 Oct 2014 Read
i think there is a case where only winners over the last 2 to 3 seasons are included and if a ranking does not support the fact that a player hasent won a tournament then tough he is not included.
the title is a clue so champions only not semi finalists.
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by Roland » 24 Oct 2014 Read
I like the top up World Champions idea. If you did that this time you'd have the 4 spots being filled by Higgins, Dott, Williams and Ebdon.
Anyway, the fact is now it is highly likely that Carter will get the final spot. He's just told Barry Hearn on twitter that he's "chomping at the bit" to play in it. Who can deny him now? If any player outside of the current qualifiers wins then they will have earned their place by winning a big ranking event. They will also probably go out in the group stages because they'll be knackered.
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by Wildey » 24 Oct 2014 Read
yea Carter is in it would be a massive shock if he doesent make it now AT 2 was the biggest danger for him.
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