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Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Ayrshirebhoy

snookerfan97 wrote:I forgot Mark Allen,he is 27, make that 3 top players under 30 years of age.Still a very small number


Another hot prospect who has delivered very little. I honestly think the reason a decent percentage of tournaments are won these days are just because someone's gotta win it. Very rare now you see someone dominating a tourney now like ronnie just did.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Witz78

Ayrshirebhoy wrote:
snookerfan97 wrote:I forgot Mark Allen,he is 27, make that 3 top players under 30 years of age.Still a very small number


Another hot prospect who has delivered very little. I honestly think the reason a decent percentage of tournaments are won these days are just because someone's gotta win it. Very rare now you see someone dominating a tourney now like ronnie just did.


I could always flip your theory on its head and say the reason no-one dominates a tournament very often now is because of the overall strength in depth compared to the past, hence Ronnies achievments at the Masters stand out a lot more.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Ayrshirebhoy

Witz78 wrote:
Ayrshirebhoy wrote:
snookerfan97 wrote:I forgot Mark Allen,he is 27, make that 3 top players under 30 years of age.Still a very small number


Another hot prospect who has delivered very little. I honestly think the reason a decent percentage of tournaments are won these days are just because someone's gotta win it. Very rare now you see someone dominating a tourney now like ronnie just did.


I could always flip your theory on its head and say the reason no-one dominates a tournament very often now is because of the overall strength in depth compared to the past, hence Ronnies achievments at the Masters stand out a lot more.


Witz, I believe your strength in depth is right. The lower players have crept up and the top players have dropped down a notch.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Sickpotter

I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby snookerfan97

I don't know what to say, the standard of play is generally good this days, but I've watched many matches of Ronnie, Higgins, Hunter, Williams, Hendry,Doherty in the early 2000's and they seemed harder to beat back then, compared let's say to Robbo or Selby do nowadays and I have a theory regarding that issue.
It seems to me that Robbo and Selby play normal in every event, they don't see the PTC's or the Championship league as practice oportunities, they are not trying to build up form in this events, and that's why they seem tired at the majors.Pick and choosing events can also mean to go to a tournament to get yourself into form for a major event that follows a PTC or something

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Holden Chinaski

Sickpotter wrote:I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.

Good post. I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Ayrshirebhoy

Sickpotter wrote:I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.


Yeah nice, that sounds better than my rant. Also thinking I'm a bit spoiled with snooker. I'm the very same age as the class of 92 so as I kid I watched Davis, White ect and grew up with ronnie, Williams and Higgins. I guess that's why I think a lot of today's players are ballbags.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:
Ayrshirebhoy wrote:
snookerfan97 wrote:I forgot Mark Allen,he is 27, make that 3 top players under 30 years of age.Still a very small number


Another hot prospect who has delivered very little. I honestly think the reason a decent percentage of tournaments are won these days are just because someone's gotta win it. Very rare now you see someone dominating a tourney now like ronnie just did.


I could always flip your theory on its head and say the reason no-one dominates a tournament very often now is because of the overall strength in depth compared to the past, hence Ronnies achievments at the Masters stand out a lot more.

do you honestly think that rofl

Selby was rubbish all tournament Ronnie reveled in the fact players did not step up to the plate.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Wildey

Sickpotter wrote:I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.

Ronnie and Hendry are to blame because they did it that way and lesser players 25 years and under try to copy that way of playing and coming unstuck because they arent that good at it and has nothing to fall back on.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby PLtheRef

Wildey wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.

Ronnie and Hendry are to blame because they did it that way and lesser players 25 years and under try to copy that way of playing and coming unstuck because they arent that good at it and has nothing to fall back on.


The fact remains is that back then, as they do now. Hendry in particular and O'Sullivan from 2001 onwards had both an equally strong attacking game as well as safety game meaning had he bided his time with several opponents, you'd expect a lot more victories from Ronnie. Hendry was patient enough to wear opponents down even whilst playing attacking snooker.

Few have both Attack and Safety in equal zenith measure. In fact, I'd say its just Hendry and O'Sullivan who have had them in equal measure.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Witz78

Wildey wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.

Ronnie and Hendry are to blame because they did it that way and lesser players 25 years and under try to copy that way of playing and coming unstuck because they arent that good at it and has nothing to fall back on.


Alex Higgins and Jimmy id say :tree:

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.

Ronnie and Hendry are to blame because they did it that way and lesser players 25 years and under try to copy that way of playing and coming unstuck because they arent that good at it and has nothing to fall back on.


Alex Higgins and Jimmy id say :tree:

No because Alex and Jimmy was not as successful as Davis so copying them wouldn't have created Champions.... Back then players loved watching Jimmy play but to be a success it was the Davis way.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Andre147

Ronnie on Twitter:

"Not even out the box, smells like new" :-D

Image

He certainly fully deserves that as a 5 time winner of the Masters, because whoever wins it 5 times has the right to keep the trophy like Hendry did in his 1993 triumph.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Wildey

PLtheRef wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Sickpotter wrote:I'm thinking that we've got a generation of players who spent so much time working on being attacking players that they've neglected proper match tactics/safety. Growing up playing the same kind of players in junior leagues didn't prepare them for what a smart tactical player can do and so they're having a harder time pushing out the older players.

Snooker has strength in depth only in the potting and break building areas....tactics and safety wise there's less depth than previous eras.

Ronnie and Hendry are to blame because they did it that way and lesser players 25 years and under try to copy that way of playing and coming unstuck because they arent that good at it and has nothing to fall back on.


The fact remains is that back then, as they do now. Hendry in particular and O'Sullivan from 2001 onwards had both an equally strong attacking game as well as safety game meaning had he bided his time with several opponents, you'd expect a lot more victories from Ronnie. Hendry was patient enough to wear opponents down even whilst playing attacking snooker.

Few have both Attack and Safety in equal zenith measure. In fact, I'd say its just Hendry and O'Sullivan who have had them in equal measure.

Im glad you have said that because there's this myth going about that hendry didn't have a safety game.

yea he didn't particularly like to play it and he rather take on a pot rather than safety shot but anyone that saw the Best of 31 frames UK Championship finals he played against Steve Davis knows how well he competed with Steve in safeties.

in latter years he was too focused on not playing safe that he became reckless in shots he went for when it was obvious he needed to fall back on safeties a little more than he used to.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby PLtheRef

Thought it was publicly announced during the 1993 Masters that Hendry would keep the trophy if he won. We didn't get such an announcement this time around. Plus, Hendry won the trophy five years on the bounce. O'Sullivan's record, which is as impressive, comes with results from 1995, 2005, 2007, 2009 and 2014

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Richproc

Hendry had an ok safety game but not one that could consistently compete with the great tacticians it was really his great long potting and breakbuilding which put pressure on his opponents and created his chances.
Stephen Hendry is the only player who has won consistently playing all out attack but this was because he was so consistent and his cue ball control was great. Hendry's way of playing is the best and is the way Ronnie plays at his best the only difference is Ronnie has a great safety game to fall back on which Hendry never had that is why he won so few scrappy frames. The problem the players have these days is they copy the Hendry way but there cueball control is poor in comparison like Trump's for example and you just can't keep potting difficult shots all the time hence the misses. The players today also have fewer players to learn the tactical stuff off of as nearly all the top players play the same way that is why they struggle with Ronnie.
Also that is why Ronnie and John higgins have dominated tthe World championship as they are the complete player.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Cannonball

Hendry won a lot because the opposition was so much weaker in his day. He could attack a lot, because there was no danger of any reply. Ronnie came along with Higgins and Williams. Hendry didn't win much after that trio turned up! And he won nowt at Ronnie's age. The competition is stronger than ever; and Ronnie still keeps winning. Unreal.

I agree with your comments about the other players though. It's strange, you'd think that with all the badged up coaches around, pro players would have great safety games and pinpoint cue-ball control?

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Richproc

Trumpster I would be interested in when you started to watch snooker as Hendry's era was not weak. The strength in depth is better these days but the top players were still good. If you ask O'sullivan, Higgins and Williams they all say how good Hendry was in his prime he could of given them starts and still won which I think is pushing it a bit bu he was an incredible player. The thing was by the time O'sullivan, Higgins and Williams had reached the top of the game in the late 90s Hendry had pretty much achieved everything he wanted to and was struggling for motivation especially after winning his 7th World title. He spent more time on the golf course and with his family and less time practicing which took the fine edge off his game but could still produce some great stuff on his day. In my opinion the last 2 years has been a weak era at the top of the game Selby wouldn't have been a top 8 player 10 to 15 years ago and certainly wouldn't of won the UK and Masters playing the way he did last season.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Wildey

Snooker Overdrive wrote:Andre, is he really allowed to keep the trophy?

no nothing has been said about it Andre just thought because hendry had it but Hendry won it 5 times in a row.


Ronnie not even won that trophy 5 times the trophy he won in 1995 was a different trophy first won by McManus in 1994 and was played for until tobacco sponsorship ended at the masters in 2003.

Image

in fact the Trophy Hendry won and kept Hendry was the only player Ever to win that trophy...The Masters trophy before 1989 was a different Gold trophy.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Andre147

I see, sory about the confusion then.

But then again I ask how was Ronnie allowed to have it and placed that photo on his Twitter? Why would WS send him a box containing the trophy if he isn't allowed to keep it? Or is that trophy not the original one we saw so many times and when he lifted it?

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Wildey

Andre147 PGC wrote:I see, sory about the confusion then.

But then again I ask how was Ronnie allowed to have it and placed that photo on his Twitter? Why would WS send him a box containing the trophy if he isn't allowed to keep it? Or is that trophy not the original one we saw so many times and when he lifted it?

Its Glass lol

For Obvious reasons its safer to carry it in a box with padding for protection.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Andre147

Wildey wrote:
Andre147 PGC wrote:I see, sory about the confusion then.

But then again I ask how was Ronnie allowed to have it and placed that photo on his Twitter? Why would WS send him a box containing the trophy if he isn't allowed to keep it? Or is that trophy not the original one we saw so many times and when he lifted it?

Its Glass lol

For Obvious reasons its safer to carry it in a box with padding for protection.


But you didn't exactly answer my question... does he get to keep that trophy? Is that the original one since 2004? Or does all the winners of the Masters since 2004 get to keep a replica of it?

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby hendry_fan

Richproc wrote:Trumpster I would be interested in when you started to watch snooker as Hendry's era was not weak. The strength in depth is better these days but the top players were still good. If you ask O'sullivan, Higgins and Williams they all say how good Hendry was in his prime he could of given them starts and still won which I think is pushing it a bit bu he was an incredible player. The thing was by the time O'sullivan, Higgins and Williams had reached the top of the game in the late 90s Hendry had pretty much achieved everything he wanted to and was struggling for motivation especially after winning his 7th World title. He spent more time on the golf course and with his family and less time practicing which took the fine edge off his game but could still produce some great stuff on his day. In my opinion the last 2 years has been a weak era at the top of the game Selby wouldn't have been a top 8 player 10 to 15 years ago and certainly wouldn't of won the UK and Masters playing the way he did last season.





Excellent postRichproc!.



I have been watchin snooker since the mid 80,s,in fact i,m exactly 20 days older than Hendry!.


When Hendry came onto the scene,he blew my and every ones minds away,the amount of times/years he played snooker to an absolute top level was just incredible,it,s unhuman!.



I can assure you that the 90,s was not a weak era,sure the strength in depth has been higher for many years now but the top players were just as good as the top crop/current crop has been/is at present.

Hendry made them look weak,cause he was just way too bl**dy good,the amount of times he cleared up in 1,2 visits,made frame winning breaks,pinched frames after being 50/60 behind,played consistent to such a high standard was just unreal.



Of course Hendry still wanted to win after he won his 7th title but as you say,his motivation certainly dropped,mainly due to spending more time with his family/freinds,not practicing as much,doing other things.


He,d done it all and anything from then on was a bouns.




Trying to label the 90,s as a weak era is just pure and utter ignorance.




The ones who like to try and make it out it that the 90,s was a weak era either don,t have a clue about snooker,or did,nt even see much,if any at all of the 90,s snooker,the way Hendry played in that period,if they did they would know full well that the 90,s was anything but weak and they,re just trying to devalue Hendrys wins with that ignorant false claim,anything to try and make Ronnie look better!.



Trying to devalue Hendrys wins due to a "weak era" is pure n utter cobblers!.






One could try and devalue not only Ronnies wins,one could try and do the same with all the other players wins being due to there opponents not being on song,playing rubbish against them,playing WEAK!.



I,ve lost count how many times eg Ronnies opponents have played rubbish,WEAK against him,the Hendry devaluaters don,t like to mention that do they!,they just like to harp on about how well Ronnie played,but they don,t like to mention how WEAK his opponent played!.










Yes,Hendry stopped winning tournaments at the latter part of his carreer,but he still managed to knock in Big breaks,centurys and get to the latter parts of certain tournaments.




Up untill the age of 43,he still managed to compete with the top 16,in fact he only had problems competing against the top 8.



He even made the 1/4 finals and shot a *147* at the World Championships at the age of 43!.


Playing snooker so consistently to such a high standard for so many years takes some doing,no wonder he at some point started to run out of steam!.





This speaks for itself= Hendrys Ranking event finals: = 57 (36 titles, 21 runner-ups).

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Skullman

Andre147 PGC wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Andre147 PGC wrote:I see, sory about the confusion then.

But then again I ask how was Ronnie allowed to have it and placed that photo on his Twitter? Why would WS send him a box containing the trophy if he isn't allowed to keep it? Or is that trophy not the original one we saw so many times and when he lifted it?

Its Glass lol

For Obvious reasons its safer to carry it in a box with padding for protection.


But you didn't exactly answer my question... does he get to keep that trophy? Is that the original one since 2004? Or does all the winners of the Masters since 2004 get to keep a replica of it?


I'd assume he gets to keep it for the year and has to give it back just before the 2015 Masters starts.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Richproc

Thanks Hendryfan its good to know that there are some people on here who know how good Hendry was in his prime. Most people seem to think he only played like at the end of his career and his opposition was really poor but if he was in his prime and playing now he would wipe the floor with nearly everyone except Ronnie.

Re: Dafabet Masters - The Final: Mark Selby v Ronnie O'Sulli

Postby Andre147

Skullman wrote:
Andre147 PGC wrote:
Wildey wrote:
Andre147 PGC wrote:I see, sory about the confusion then.

But then again I ask how was Ronnie allowed to have it and placed that photo on his Twitter? Why would WS send him a box containing the trophy if he isn't allowed to keep it? Or is that trophy not the original one we saw so many times and when he lifted it?

Its Glass lol

For Obvious reasons its safer to carry it in a box with padding for protection.


But you didn't exactly answer my question... does he get to keep that trophy? Is that the original one since 2004? Or does all the winners of the Masters since 2004 get to keep a replica of it?


I'd assume he gets to keep it for the year and has to give it back just before the 2015 Masters starts.


Yeah that's what I thought, thanks. <ok>