Williamhill.com UK Championship Final Discussion !!

You did not say "matters more than the others", you said ROS has the one that truly matters. There's a difference as your statement alludes that the other events have no value from an accomplishment standpoint.

Yes the WC is more important for the players to win from a prestige standpoint but it is not the only one that matters.

IMO in order to make a statement like "it's the only one that matters", the event would have to carry enough ranking points to instantly elevate a player to the #1 ranking. No event offers that opportunity so no one event can ever be considered to be the only one that matters.

Ronnie would not be a True Great by winning a World Championship its a culmination of things that attribute to greatness of a player and Winning a World Title is only part of it.

For me true Greatness is by Winning titles consistently over many years and not by Winning a World Title.

Playing Great over 17 Days at the Crucible proves nothing Take Joe Johnson in the 80s he won in 1986 reached the final in 1987 in his other 6 Crucible appearance he won just 1 more Match a 10-7 win over Cliff Wilson in 1988.

Yes your Remembered for being a World Champion for ever But it doesn't prove how great a player is or was.

being a world champion alone does not make you a great however i still think one world title is worth more than a masters and uk title combined

i would still have dings four ranking titles this season over the one world championship ronnie won

it an interesting debate to have but where do you draw the line for how many ranking titles is worth one world championship ?

jojo wrote:being a world champion alone does not make you a great however i still think one world title is worth more than a masters and uk title combined

i would still have dings four ranking titles this season over the one world championship ronnie won

it an interesting debate to have but where do you draw the line for how many ranking titles is worth one world championship ?

take Jimmy White never been World Champion but he has 10 Ranking wins and 1 Masters But hes reached 6 World Finals

How Many World Champions is Jimmy White still ahead of in the pecking order of Greatness?

The World Championship is by far the most important tournament and it's a real benchmark how good you are. Indeed, with a little bit luck and good form you can win it once , like Dott, Taylor or Johnson did. But even then you see that these players are somehow popular despite not even beeing anything special.

Johnson has only won one ranker, it was the World title. But that was enough that people are still speaking about him today. Same with Taylor, people only remember him for his World Title 1985 (ok apart from the fact that he's working as commentator).

I mentioned above that you can win it once with a little bit fortune and good form. But another real fact is that the true legends of this game are all multiple winners. And without winning the World Championship at least twice you will never become an All-Time Great. And that's what the legends of this game like Hendry,Davis,O'Sullivan, Higgins and Williams have all done

The turning point of the final was when Selby took on a very low percentage shot when he was 5-1 ahead(and the score was 0-0 in frame 7), Robertson made 54 from that and from then on was back in the match. The other key moment came when Selby missed a medium range red when he was 6-3 ahead(and the score was 0-45 in frame 10), the reds were ideally set for a clearance, and had he made that red he should have won the frame from it.

Robertson and O'Sullivan are the best 2 players in the world at present. Ding Junhui lacks the mental toughness to be categorised in their company, and Selby lacks the scoring ability. It will be interesting to see if Bingham can keep up his form.

TheRocket wrote:The World Championship is by far the most important tournament and it's a real benchmark how good you are. Indeed, with a little bit luck and good form you can win it once , like Dott, Taylor or Johnson did. But even then you see that these players are somehow popular despite not even beeing anything special.

Johnson has only won one ranker, it was the World title. But that was enough that people are still speaking about him today. Same with Taylor, people only remember him for his World Title 1985 (ok apart from the fact that he's working as commentator).

I mentioned above that you can win it once with a little bit fortune and good form. But another real fact is that the true legends of this game are all multiple winners. And without winning the World Championship at least twice you will never become an All-Time Great. And that's what the legends of this game like Hendry,Davis,O'Sullivan, Higgins and Williams have all done

Yea but you could win the World title twice like Johnson and Taylor almost did but would add another WC on to their CV Change anything unless they win tournaments all over the World and Consistently like those players you mentioned did.


How Great a player would Williams be as twice World Champion if you took away his other 16 Tournaments that includes 3 China Open, 3 Grand Prix/LG Cup, 3 Thailand Masters, 2 UK Championship, 2 Welsh Open, British Open, German Masters and Irish Open

Yes, winning the World Championship alone is not enough to become an All-Time-Great nor it's satisfying. But the point is that the WC is just a must, it's a big duty to become a great player. Without winning the World Championship your career is never completed, there is always something missing. And to win it even more than once is something special.

Best example is Ding. While he is winning his rankers, people are more talking about the question of whether he can become a World Champion than about his current titles. The World Championship is just something special, no doubt.

And in modern times, the players who won the World Championship multiple times (Hendry,Davis,O'Sullivan,Higgins,Williams) have also won the most rankers , so it shows that if you're winning the World more than once, it's very likely that you end up as an All Time Great Player because you are just winning everywhere and any title.

Jewell wrote:Fair enough, but I still stand by what I said. Maybe I did go overboard in proclaiming "these numbers are irrelevant" when referencing the other ranking titles. However, the WC IS the one that truly matters, I don't think I was incorrect when I made that statement.

Also, if you're going to quote someone please at least try to do it properly. Nowhere did I say "it's the only one that matters" when talking about the WC. In fact what I said was "Ronnie has the one that truly matters". Two very different quotes there, with different meanings.

Once again, I don't think I was wrong to say that, although you might have a different opinion obviously.

If the World Championships is the only one that matters, does that mean Stephen Hendry is the greatest because he won it more times than anybody else?

Jewell is a massive fan of Stephen Hendry.

Jewell wrote:I see what you did there.

Can you explain it to me?

Jewell wrote:

SnookerFan wrote:

Jewell wrote:I see what you did there.

Can you explain it to me?

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=103

vodkadiet wrote:The turning point of the final was when Selby took on a very low percentage shot when he was 5-1 ahead(and the score was 0-0 in frame 7), Robertson made 54 from that and from then on was back in the match. The other key moment came when Selby missed a medium range red when he was 6-3 ahead(and the score was 0-45 in frame 10), the reds were ideally set for a clearance, and had he made that red he should have won the frame from it.

I know the two shots you're on about and I agree. The 3rd shot was the black for 8-8 of course but the other two were definite game changers. First one he took his foot off throat, second one he didn't seize the moment, possibly not realising how key shot it was and taking the appropriate time over it.

vodkadiet wrote:Robertson and O'Sullivan are the best 2 players in the world at present. Ding Junhui lacks the mental toughness to be categorised in their company, and Selby lacks the scoring ability. It will be interesting to see if Bingham can keep up his form.

In all the discussions about Ronnie and what the Worlds are worth, looks like this post slipped through the cracks. Disagree about ROS as he's just not consistent enough atm, but otherwise

I’m back! Am pretty late with this but here’s my view on the final. Am really gutted for Selby. I thought Mark had him at 5-1 and 6-3 up. Robbo’s a very good player, but you can’t help but feel bad when your favourite player loses a big final, even (or especially) if it’s to a top player.

The way I see there were three turning points in the final.
1. Frame 10: That missed middle distance red by Mark. Robbo looked there for the taking then, but leaving him an open table gave him the easy chance he needed to get flowing.
2. Frame 13: Robbo had missed frame ball black (or maybe black before frame ball red) and the table was perfect for a counterattack. Selby missed a red on 22 and Robbo took the frame. If Selby had cleared up, he’d be back in the lead at 7-6 and would’ve broken Neil’s momentum.
3. Frame 16: That black! If it were 8-8, I think Selby would’ve won from there.

Anyway, what’s done is done. Hope Mark can defend his other major and maybe get add another ranker to collection. A player of his class should have a more substantial CV when it comes to ranking event wins.

Still Robbo deserves to be a Triple Crown winner and the UK brings him back to level terms with Ding as most successful non-British player. He’s very close to becoming an all-time great. One Worlds and maybe increase the ranking event tally by a couple more? Or maybe he should try to be first to get the Triple Crown and the International Championship?

And with this win, he retains his Number One position in the rankings and I can’t think of anyone who deserves it more. From October 2012, he’s been at the business end of almost every tournament and very frequently only the eventual winner of runner stop him, with only a couple of blips.

• 2012 IC: Loses to Judd Trump (eventual winner) in the final
• 2012 UK: Loses to Mark Selby (eventual winner) in the QF
• 2013 Masters: Loses to Mark Selby (eventual winner) in the final
• 2013 GM: Loses to Allister Carter (eventual winner) in the SF
• 2013 Welsh: Loses to Stuart Bingham (eventual RU) in the L16
• 2013 WO: Loses to Matthew Stevens (eventual RU) in the SF
• 2013 PTC Grands: Loses to Ding Junhui (eventual winner) in the final
• 2013 CO: Winner
• 2013 WC: Loses to Robert Milkins in the L32 BLIP
• 2013 Wuxi: Winner
• 2013 AO: Loses to Marco Fu (eventual winner) in the final
• 2013 SM: Loses to Ding Junhui (eventual winner) in the QF
• 2013 IO: Loses to Ding Junhui (eventual winner) in the QF
• 2013 IC: Loses to Peter Ebdon L16 BLIP
• 2013 CofC: Loses to Ronnie O’Sullivan (eventual winner) in the SF
• 2013 UK: Winner

I don’t think anyone can match that sort of consistency for a year+ at the moment.

And with that I’m done for the year. There’re the three and a very short bit days of qualifiers left, which I’ll keep an eye on, but not post about unless a big shock happens, but barring that, I’ll see you guys in the build up to the Masters.

Merry Christmas, SI. Enjoy the few snooker free days and let's all hope for a great second half to the season.