sootywooty wrote:Hi All!! Another touching ball one, say the cue ball is touching a red and i play away not moving the red and hit the black and then go in off it. I said maybe is the same as in normal play if i hit the red target ball and then go in off the black and is just four away am i right.
Thanks!! for any replies.
Hi Sooty. The Rules as they are written may seem rather wordy and lengthy, not exactly light and fun reading. Ironically, the particular way in which the Rules are written is intended to simplify the on table situation as much as possible. In other words, the Rules try to be "one size fits all" for whatever might possibly happen on the table. There are very few situations in which special rules will apply.
That said, players often muddle and conflate matters in their own mind by saying, "Well, what if this? Or what if that? Or what if the other thing?" For the most part, all those "what ifs" are irrelevant if one understands the spirit of the Rule.
So to simplify your situation, let's start with the spirit of the Rule involved here. We all know that (except in the special case of Free Ball,) when the striker steps to the table, the Ball On will automatically be the lowest valued object ball available on the table. This is most often Red ball throughout the frame. Simply put, striker is obligated to make first contact with the Ball On; first contact with a different object ball would be a foul. (In fact, this is the exact reason why it is REQUIRED to contact a declared Free Ball first; it would be a foul to first contact the ball that Free Ball is replacing.) But Touching Ball situation is special, not because it is an exception, but because it has a special definition. And that definition is that if the cue ball is declared to be Touching an object ball which is On or could be On if nominated, then first contact is AUTOMATICALLY determined to have been made between those touching balls immediately at the commencement of the stroke. Therefore, if there is a Touching Ball situation between the White and the Ball On, it is impossible to commit a "first contact" foul. If you are the striker and you are Touching Red, then you can play at and contact any or all of the Colours, doesn't matter, no "first contact" foul because you have already "contacted" a Red. (To be clear, there are still plenty of other ways that you might commit a foul before the stroke comes to an end.)
And there you have your answer....when you contacted Black, there was certainly no foul for doing so as you had already "contacted" the Red. BUT of course, a foul was committed when the White entered a pocket, the in off. As the Ball On for the stroke was Red, this would be a 4 point penalty. It doesn't matter which balls the White contacts along the way, it may have struck every single other ball on the table before falling in the pocket. It would still be a 4 point penalty (of course, 4 points being minimum for any penalty).
Now, also bear in mind that it is possible for that 4 point penalty to be superseded by some other higher point value penalty. For instance, you play away from Touching Ball Red, White contacts Black, goes on to knock the Pink into a pocket and the White also goes in off while the Blue jumps off the table and onto the floor. There were all kinds of fouls committed in that single stroke. But contacting Black was not one of them as first contact had already been made with Red. So the result of the stroke as described would be foul, six away for the Pink foul being the highest of the penalty values involved. Complicated to write and read it, but hopefully simple once you understand the concept.