Post a reply

When is it a foul and when is it not a foul?

Postby elnino

Player pot's a Red followed by a Black.

Referee picks a ball out of the pocket and absentmindedly spots a Red.

The player didn't notice the error and got down and proceeded to pot the next Red.

Not withstanding the fact that the Referee mistakenly spotted a Red instead of a Black in this scenario, when can the Referee call a foul as a result of the player potting the red?

Re: When is it a foul and when is it not a foul?

Postby Dan-cat

Nice one Elnino. When the ref notices it the player on gets a fowl called against them? I seem to remember it's the player's job to make sure the table is correct before they play or the foul can be called against them even if it's not their fault. Where's Andre, PLtheRef and Acesinc when you need 'em? :)

I had a situation last week where I respotted the yellow on the green spot. We played several shots before noticing, and just swapped it across. It hadn't been moved. Can't be sure that a ball didn't travel over the yellow spot though.

Re: When is it a foul and when is it not a foul?

Postby elnino

DAN-CAT

The understanding of what constitutes a STROKE is relevant to answering my post.

In this instance if the Referee hasn't called the score the Player has committed a foul regardless of the fact that the Referee didn't re-spot the Black.

A player by continuing his break before the Referee called the score is deemed to have not completed his previous stroke; and, hence has committed a foul and would incur a 7 point penalty.

Section 2 Rule 6(c) A stroke is not completed until:

(iv) the referee has called any score relevant to the stroke.


Had the Referee called the score after re-spotting the Black incorrectly, the Player would be entitled to continue his break without incurring any penalty.

A player can't be held responsible for a Referee error in spotting a ball correctly.

Section 3 Rule 7. Spotting Colours:

Any colour pocketed or forced off the table shall be spotted before the next stroke is made, until finally potted under Section 3 Rule 3 (g) (iii).

(a) A player shall not be held responsible for any mistake by the referee in failing to spot correctly any ball.


Now what would happen when it is discovered that the Black ball is missing from the table?

1) If the RED ball wrongly spotted as a Black has remained undisturbed it is removed from the table and the BLACK ball would be spotted in its place.

2) If the RED ball wrongly spotted as a Black was displaced in subsequent play and can be positively identified, it would be removed from the table and the BLACK ball would be placed on its own spot or the highest available spot.

3) If the RED ball wrongly spotted as a Black was displaced in subsequent play can't be positively identified, the game would continue as a 16 reds frame and the BLACK ball would be placed on its own spot or the highest available spot.

Next you said:-

"I had a situation last week where I respotted the yellow on the green spot. We played several shots before noticing, and just swapped it across. It hadn't been moved. Can't be sure that a ball didn't travel over the yellow spot though."

DAN-CAT ball(s) once spotted incorrectly cannot be touched after a stroke has been made. They remain in place it/they occupied and is/are deemed to be in play.

The following rules apply:-

Section 3 Penalty Rule 10

The following acts are fouls and incur a penalty of four points unless a higher one is indicated

(b)(vi) touching a ball or ball marker in play; or


Section 3 Rule 7(c) cover's this scenario

If a stroke is made with a ball or balls not correctly spotted, they will be considered to be correctly spotted for subsequent strokes. Any colour incorrectly missing from the table will be spotted:
(i) without penalty when discovered if missing due to previous oversight;
(ii) subject to penalty if the striker played before the referee was able to effect the spotting.

Re: When is it a foul and when is it not a foul?

Postby acesinc

As I interpret it, everything that El Nino says is technically correct, but I agree with Dan-Cat in how he handled the re-spotting of yellow onto its proper spot. I am firmly planted on the fence and in the middle of the road and waffling on this subject.

Section 5. of the Rules covers the definition of the Officials and their duties and responsibilities. However, this really only deals with the game proper when real living, breathing "officials" are tending to these duties. It doesn't cover simple, social games wherein one's opponent is ACTING as the referee. Specifically, Section 5., Rule (1) (a) (i) and (ii) essentially grant the Referee supreme power to make a decision in the interest of what the referee considers to be fair play.

In a tournament match, I once had a situation nearly identical to Dan-Cat's. No referee, opponent was responsible for the spot. So I am working the Black end with a couple of reds and the Green is down there as well and the last Red is in the jaws of the Yellow pocket, Yellow and Green Spots are open. So I have the table worked out in my plan and proceed to take a Red, pot Green, and I am focused on the next Red-Black sequence. The opponent/referee calls out "Four!" and I rapidly pot my Red with a nice angle on Black, pot Black, and run White down to baulk to take care of the final Red. White stops perfectly where it already had in my imagination about 3 or 4 inches on the black side of Yellow Spot in perfect position for the hanging Red to leave on the next nice colour. Except for the big, fat Green ball sitting on the Yellow Spot, a perfect snooker. F*@%!

Yes, technically, by the Rules, I am supposed to be responsible not only for working out my break, performing the mental arithmetic of the scoring, and the required mechanics needed for execution, but I am also supposed to be responsible for my idiot opponent not even being competent enough to know which spot to put a ball on. My fault. My opponent was actually a nice guy, just frustrating to play against for his repeated showing of ignorance of the actual game. So I consulted the Tournament Director, a bona fide professional Referee (same one from which I received my training). He requested from my opponent that the Green should be re-spotted to its proper spot as the situation was not the fault of the striker and, though it did not APPEAR to be, the placement of the Green on Yellow Spot, COULD HAVE BEEN interpreted as an attempt by the opponent to impede access to the Red in the Yellow corner. To repeat, this was a REQUEST from the Tournament Director and my opponent (again, nice guy) agreed to this. It did not come to it, but my gut feeling of the situation was that, had the opponent refused, the Tournament Director would have just referred to Section 5. and overruled the opponent anyway, but perhaps, he may not have and could have just told me that it was my problem, deal with it.
__________________

There was a situation a few years ago (strictly memory here, so I may get specific details wrong), I believe it was an event in China with, I think, Stephen Maguire against a young Chinese amateur. Like English is the international language for air travel, so it is the international language for Snooker. Anyway, the young Chinese played a nice Red and, not speaking or understanding English well, verbally called "Blue", then proceeded to play a perfect Pink which would have continued a nice sequence. "Foul" called by the Referee and rightly so. The Chinese kid was confused at first but accepted his mistake, but Maguire (or whoever) refused to accept the foul and requested the referee rescind the foul call as the striker was clearly playing at the ball he struck even if he got the word incorrect. The Referee agreed to this and it was and is the right thing to do.

So the point is, while the Rules of Snooker are strict, they need not be absolute if there is an extenuating circumstance. The Referee wields a lot of power, even to the point of overruling a clear, black and white written rule if doing so is appropriate to the situation.

Re: When is it a foul and when is it not a foul?

Postby Dan-cat

Gotta love Mags. By all accounts a really decent guy.

Thanks both of you! Interesting last para Acesinc.

Elnino you enigmatic fellow, what's your snooker story and what's with the random pop tests? Keep 'me coming by the way!

Re: When is it a foul and when is it not a foul?

Postby elnino

I echo your sentiments expressed about Asesinc's last paragraph.

DANCAT I don't play snooker myself but am very interested in the game and its rules.

I strongly believe that people engaged in any pastime should endeavour to acquaint themselves with the laws governing the hobby they pursue. I see no enjoyment in participating in any activity with disdainful disregard for the rules governing its conduct.

I watch snooker played at my bowling club by amateurs at both social and competitive league levels. The league matches are refereed by players from the host club. Their lack of knowledge of the rules of game is too evident.

I regularly witness articulate players give convincing incorrect rulings that have no relevance to the situations being judged. What surprises me even more is that the recipients of such off the cuff rulings seem to accept them regularly and gracefully. A clear case of ignorance of the rules of the game is demonstrated by both parties.

My postings are not random pop up tests. I share scenarios that I have seen unfold in the games I watch at my club.