elnino wrote:Sadly Acesinc we shall have to continue to disagree.
If we must disagree on this minor point, that is okay. In the grand scheme of things, it is insignificant as we can certainly agree on nearly everything related to Snooker.
However, based on your full post, you are not stating (and therefore, I assume you are not understanding) my position quite correctly. So let's address that first.
Applying your logic results in contradiction of Section 2 Rule 7 which clearly states: ...
You are not applying my logic at all. You are applying your interpretation of my logic which appears to not be an accurate reflection of my opinion. I agree completely with you that "potting" and "pocketing" are not
the same thing; they are not
completely interchangeable. If you believe that I have earlier stated that the two terms are interchangeable, perhaps you need to go back and re-read my earlier posts. I will attempt to explain my position one more time, but after that, if my position is not clear, then there is nothing further that I can do.
As you know, the Rules of Snooker have an entire section, Section 2., dedicated to "Definitions". Not everything is defined, only terms or phrases that are important to be clearly understood and used only in a certain way in other sections of the Rules. Many snooker related terms and phrases, including "fluke" and "pocketing" are not defined at all. They are not defined because either a) they don't appear at all in the text of the Rules or b) when they do appear later in the Rules, it is only in a generic, commonly defined way that is not critical to the specific context of the specific rule. "Fluke" never appears in the Rules because there is NEVER a situation in which the ruling hinges on whether or not a shot was a fluke. No matter how someone may define "fluke"....it simply does not matter, the ruling will be the same so there is no cause to ever mention or define "fluke" in the Rules. "Pocketed" or "pocketing" appears many times in the Rules but not
in the Definitions section. One cannot say something like, "'Pocketing' is defined as...." because, according to the Rules of Snooker, "pocketing" is not actually defined anywhere. It is used
in many places. You have pointed out several examples of where it appears already. There are some examples of "pocketed" that are referring to a specific foul stroke situation such as your example:
" All points scored in a break before a foul is awarded are allowed but the striker shall not score any points for any ball pocketed in a stroke called foul."
But in most
usages throughout the Rules, the term "pocketed" is referring to a situation that may either be in the context of a foul stroke or a fair stroke, either way does not matter, the ball was still "pocketed". I will give you an example that you found yourself and had quoted in an earlier post:
elnino wrote: Section2 Rule 10(b) _ “Object balls are in play from the start of the frame until pocketed or forced off the table”.
Now, if we are to apply your
logic to this example, then a red which has been "potted" is still in play
even though it is now sitting in the bottom of a pocket and that of course doesn't make any sense at all. Either that, or we have discovered a mistake in the Rules and this statement should read, "Object balls are in play from the start of the frame until pocketed, potted
, or forced off the table”. It is my opinion that the rule is correct as it is written with no mistake; there is no need to include "potted" as part of this list because if a ball has been "potted", then it has also been "pocketed".
The reverse is not
true: if a ball has been "pocketed", then it may
have been "potted", but it might have also entered the pocket some other way. It may have entered the pocket during a foul stroke. It may have been brushed into the pocket by the striker's elbow before he played his stroke--also a foul of course. It may have been on the edge of the pocket and fell in by vibration--not a foul, but that ball is "pocketed" and out of play until the referee returns it to where it belongs. The point is, if a ball has entered a pocket by ANY means whatsoever, then that ball has been "pocketed". But a ball has only been "potted" if it entered the pocket in the course of a legal, fair stroke.
If you are good with mathematics, then you can think about this as a Venn diagram: "potting" is a subset of "pocketing" so the little "potting" circle of the Venn would appear completely enclosed within the larger "pocketing" circle. In other words, EVERY ball which has been "potted" has also been "pocketed", but a ball that has been "pocketed" may or may not have been "potted". Exactly the same as EVERY "square" is also a "rectangle", but a "rectangle" may or may not be a "square".
If you still don't agree with this version of the topic, that is perfectly okay. I believe your knowledge and love of the game both run deep.