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Referee calls.

Postby elnino

In what circumstances would a Referee declare:

a) " FOUL, John Virgo 23, Joe Johnson 6"?

b) "PENALTY, John Virgo 7"?

What is the fundamental difference in how play continues after a "FOUL" or a "PENALTY" call by the Referee?

Re: Referee calls.

Postby acesinc

elnino wrote:In what circumstances would a Referee declare:

a) " FOUL, John Virgo 23, Joe Johnson 6"?

b) "PENALTY, John Virgo 7"?

What is the fundamental difference in how play continues after a "FOUL" or a "PENALTY" call by the Referee?



You have me stumped on this one, but it sounds like you have been watching some pretty old video footage. I will do my best with what little information I can discern from the post...

The terms "foul" and "penalty" are both specifically defined in the Rules (well, "penalty points" actually), Section 2. Definitions:

"15. Penalty Points
Penalty points are awarded to an opponent after any foul.

16. Foul
A foul is any infringement of these Rules."

The simple difference then is that the "foul" is the actual breach of a Rule, the "penalty" is the punishment (which is really an award for the opponent) that is the result of the "foul".

As far as the referee's call, he is obliged to call, "Foul" immediately when he notices any breach of the Rules but the call is simple without any detail. Meanwhile, activity continues such as balls rolling around the table, and when the action on the table is completed, the referee will call the resulting break score and penalty points in the form of a): "FOUL,......................................... John Virgo 23, Joe Johnson 6". The reason for the pause is because the penalty imposed may depend on what may happen next. For instance, playing at the pink near a pocket, the white goes immediately in off, but perhaps the pink knocked into the black which has the possibility of falling into a pocket and thereby changing the penalty points to be awarded.

I don't specifically recall ever hearing a call made in the form of b) using the term "PENALTY". The only guess that I can make about this is that the call of "Foul" is intended to be immediate when the breach occurs so that if a referee were to call "Penalty" instead, my assumption is that this is a delayed call of some past foul event of which the referee was unaware and so he had not called, "Foul" at the time of the infringement. Perhaps the player was calling a foul on himself such as Joe Johnson, crouching to play at the red ball, brushed the black ball and so called the foul on himself.

As for the fundamental difference in how play continues, I haven't a clue. :shrug: Assuming my interpretation of the "Penalty" call is correct, I am not aware of any difference in how the situation would progress.

Re: Referee calls.

Postby Andre147

The referee can indeed use the term "PENALTY", although I've never actually seen it happen, it is described in the Rules Book.

So, a referee will always award penalty points after a foul is commited. After any foul the striker's turn ends and if snookered too, a freeball will be called.

The referee will only call a "PENALTY" in two cases:
- touching a ball marker
- touching a ball during the consultation when a miss was called and the balls are putted back.

Also play would continue normally, without the striker losing his turn if it was indeed him to made the foul and not the non-striker, so it is different from your normal "FOUL". Hope this clarfies things a bit.

Re: Referee calls.

Postby elnino

Acesinc _ well I never would have thought that you would be snookered on a rules issue!

Andre147 is spot on.

Let us start with the fundamental difference between the two calls:

a) A "FOUL" call results in striker's turn ending.
b) The striker's turn doesn't end after a "PENALTY" call.

A Referee would declare a "PENALTY John Virgo 7" If Joe Johnson had touched a ball when consultation about it's position took place after it was replaced following a Foul and a Miss by Joe Johnson. Play would continue normally and Joe Johnson's would still be the striker after the Referee had replaced the disturbed ball.

If the Referee declared "FOUL John Virgo 7" in the above scenario it could be assumed that Joe Johnson's turn would end; and, that isn't the outcome.

In the rules the definition of ’Striker and Turn’ talk about non-striker committing fouls. To avoid any confusion that might arise from calling “FOUL” and the associated options and actions, it is considered best practice to call “PENALTY” for any infringement of the rules committed by the non-striker.

Infringements of the rules by non-striker hardly ever occur in the professional game. So opportunity for the referee to declare "PENALTY, John Virgo 7" doesn't arise when John Virgo is in play.

However such incidences happen regularly in club matches.

Re: Referee calls.

Postby acesinc

Thanks for the education, both of you. This makes perfect sense. Even though I have read through the Rules cover to cover perhaps a dozen times, often what most readily comes to memory is what we see on video.

As you had said in a different thread, the Rules are written for the governance of the Game of Snooker as a whole, not just for the conduct of the professional game. Professionally, an anomaly rarely occurs but at the club level, "anomaly" is an oxymoron as unusual things happen all the time so we must be prepared to reference the proper Rule for any circumstance.