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Angled ball

Postby elnino

The entire section that previously dealt with angled ball situations does no longer exist. If you're angled you're forced to hit the ball on indirectly.

a) If you were angled and failed to first make contact with the ball-on can the referee call a foul and a miss? Can the 3 miss rule be applied in such a case?
b) If you were angled as a result of a foul can the referee award you a free ball?

Re: Angled ball

Postby Dan-cat

elnino wrote:The entire section that previously dealt with angled ball situations does no longer exist. If you're angled you're forced to hit the ball on indirectly.

a) If you were angled and failed to first make contact with the ball-on can the referee call a foul and a miss? Can the 3 miss rule be applied in such a case?
b) If you were angled as a result of a foul can the referee award you a free ball?


Great questions. I don't know the answers I'm looking forward to finding out. There's a great Alex Higgins shot where he put the nugget in an angle situation to win a frame here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo0RYMP8F7k

I did the same thing to my snooker buddy a few weeks ago. He was impressed and annoyed in equal measures!

What if you are angled after a foul, and can't see any of the balls?

Re: Angled ball

Postby acesinc

elnino wrote:The entire section that previously dealt with angled ball situations does no longer exist. If you're angled you're forced to hit the ball on indirectly.

a) If you were angled and failed to first make contact with the ball-on can the referee call a foul and a miss? Can the 3 miss rule be applied in such a case?
b) If you were angled as a result of a foul can the referee award you a free ball?



Elnino, either you are a master of the obscure thought experiment, or else you have way too much time spent on a snooker table with obscure, unusual things happening to you. Either way, I like the way you think.

As for "angled", it is a term I think from a bygone era, when I learned to play the game back in the 80's and earlier. To my knowledge, there is no longer any mention of the term "angled" in the Rule book at all. Even though the Rules are so necessarily wordy in other places, I believe that "angled" fell victim to Occam's razor and was eliminated.

And of course, it is rare to see such a situation professionally on telly. Surely, only a small percentage of the professional matches are televised and unfortunately, I can only manage to watch a tiny percentage of those, so I have not personally witnessed a proper referee's call in such a case in the modern era. By the way, Dan-cat, I love that clip of the Hurricane, have watched it innumerable times. Hurricane is always fascinating to watch....he could make shots that no one else would even think of, but then, on the flip side to keep things incredibly interesting, he might arbitrarily miss simple shots that any of us would pot 99 percent of the time. Fascinating.......

Anyway, back on topic, before coming to an answer to the questions, I think it prudent to look at what is actually in the Rules regarding what we know as "angled" and it can be found early on in Section 2., Definitions, 17. Snookered:

"...
(e) The cue-ball cannot be snookered by a cushion. If the curved face of
a cushion obstructs the cue-ball and is closer to the cue-ball than any
obstructing ball not on, the cue-ball is not snookered."

So these two sentences say a lot. Let's reverse your questions and start with "b)". Obviously, the referee will not award a free ball because, by definition, in this case, "the cue-ball is not snookered." Even if the object ball were surrounded by other balls not on so that it is absolutely snookered if the cushion weren't there, this is still not considered to be a snooker situation as the cushion being the nearest obstructing entity nullifies the possibility of a snooker.

This may seem to be very strange to think about. The way I view it is to consider the rule by which it is illegal to snooker your opponent behind a nominated free ball. Say you call Pink for your free ball, strike, and when the balls come to rest, the Pink is nearest ball to the cue ball in a series of balls not on that are blocking the line of sight to the object ball. That is a foul because the incoming player is snookered behind what had been the free ball. But...if the Pink comes to rest close to the object ball and snookering it, but there is another ball, say Black, which is nearer to the cue ball blocking the line to the object ball, there is no foul because Black is the effective snookering entity.

So in the angled situation, the cushion is the nearest "obstructing entity" so none of the other would be "snookering balls" pass muster.


As for question a), that is another definitive answer. Extracted from the specific rule concerning loss of frame following three successive misses, Section 3., Rule 14., (c):

"...when there was a clear path in a straight line from the cue-ball to a ball that was
on or that could have been on, such that central, full-ball, contact was available..."

...very clearly not the case in the event of an angled ball so there is absolutely no possibility of loss of frame with three successive misses. As for the referee calling a Foul and a Miss, he can always call a FAAM if he believes it to be a FAAM unless the frame scoreline prevents it.

dan-cat wrote:What if you are angled after a foul, and can't see any of the balls?


As I see it then, no special rules apply. The usual options: either play it yourself or put your opponent back in. If there was a miss involved, of course you can put him back in the original position. Odd situation but no odd rules required to govern it.

Re: Angled ball

Postby Dan-cat

Brilliant Acesinc :) thank you.

And Elnino, keeps these obscure situations coming!

Re: Angled ball

Postby elnino

DAN-CAT says it so poetically _ "Brilliant Acesinc"

Your knowledge of the Rules of Snooker is deep; and, you have a gift of explaining them in an readily understandable way. Keep it up.

The Rules of the game are devised for the governance of the game; and, not as sometimes suggested in club circles for the conduct of the Professional game.

It is surprising how scenarios that never happen in the Professional game regularly crop up in ordinary club friendly games.

Re: Angled ball

Postby acesinc

elnino wrote:DAN-CAT says it so poetically _ "Brilliant Acesinc"

Your knowledge of the Rules of Snooker is deep; and, you have a gift of explaining them in an readily understandable way. Keep it up.

The Rules of the game are devised for the governance of the game; and, not as sometimes suggested in club circles for the conduct of the Professional game.



Thank you both, you are too kind.

I have always had an affinity to being the "rules guy" for whatever endeavour currently interests me. Snooker in particular has been a nearly lifelong passion for me having picked it up in my formative post-adolescent years when I lived briefly in England. Home in the US, it had been nearly impossible to stay connected to the game--sadly, I was completely ignorant of Paul Hunter until well after his passing--so modern technology is wonderful for this purpose (although I do often loudly curse other aspects of technology).

For whatever paranormal reason, I have always seemed to have a natural understanding of the written word of the Rules. It is definitely not simple nighttime reading and I think people often get their mind twisted around the phrasing and references to other sections and rules, and just have a difficult time trying to follow what is actually trying to be said. The Rules try to encompass a nearly infinite possible number of potential situations within a framework of an obviously finite list of categories and sub-categories and it is just not an easy thing to do. That is why proper referees require training and re-training and certification at regular intervals. I did have a short training course and was technically certified Class 3 (which, if I remember correctly, just means I was qualified to referee preliminary amateur matches. In essence, it was a handshake and a pat on the back for seeming to understand the Rules pretty well.).

elnino wrote:...

It is surprising how scenarios that never happen in the Professional game regularly crop up in ordinary club friendly games.


I agree that many more unusual circumstances occur in amateur and social games, but I find it hardly surprising at all. It all has to do with level of skill, knowledge, and understanding. For instance, we just discussed "angled ball" and you will nearly never see these things in a professional match. The reason seems to be obvious to me. Most often, an angled ball situation occurs because the cue ball was headed toward a pocket en route to an in-off because the striker did not have the skill, knowledge, and understanding to know that the white ball would be heading that direction in the first place. And he just got lucky that it didn't happen to fall in the pocket.

The professional of course would have known better than to play that same shot, or at least, he would have played it in a different way so that the in-off would never have been a possibility. And so it goes for many of these unusual situations.

In fact, as a "rules guy", I have even written a lot of my own rules. I have "invented" several variations of Snooker and even a handicap system to make the Game more interesting for players who have a hard time stringing together more than a couple of balls. I put "invented" in quotes because it almost seems as if these things already existed and I just happened to be the medium who plucked them out of the air and wrote them down on paper. If you are interested, and if I don't bore the hell out of you with my laborious writing, you can access my Handicap white paper on my website. It is a compare and contrast of Professional versus Amateur Snooker along the same lines of what Elnino said of these "surprising scenarios". You must approach it with a completely open mind, make no judgments, criticisms, or decisions until the very end when all will be summed up tidily. Warning: it is tedious...thirteen typed pages and it reads in pretty much the same literary style as the Rules of Snooker. You can find it here:

http://www.acesmachinery.com/league/han ... epaper.pdf

If you can bludgeon your way through it, let me know what you think.

Re: Angled ball

Postby Andre147

Just one small correction to your previous post Acesinc, a Class 3 referee is eligible to referee not only amateur competitions but also professional ones. You see a lot of Class 3 refs at PTCs and Qualifiers for instance, and some of them even have reffed in TV matches.

Class 3, 2 and 1 Referees is the systeam used for EBSA, IBSF, etc organizations, World Snooker uses a diferent system with letters from E to A being the highest. The main difference in order to improve your Class you have to pass an Examination consisting of acessing you referee a match and then after the Examiner or Examiners acess you on the Table with various kinds of situations. In World Snooker system it's a lot simpler, and no Exams are involved, they just access you on the actual matches.

So yeah all this to say that once you are a certified referee, you can ref at both amateur and professional tournaments.

Re: Angled ball

Postby acesinc

Andre147 wrote:Just one small correction to your previous post Acesinc, a Class 3 referee is eligible to referee not only amateur competitions but also professional ones. You see a lot of Class 3 refs at PTCs and Qualifiers for instance, and some of them even have reffed in TV matches.

Class 3, 2 and 1 Referees is the systeam used for EBSA, IBSF, etc organizations, World Snooker uses a diferent system with letters from E to A being the highest. The main difference in order to improve your Class you have to pass an Examination consisting of acessing you referee a match and then after the Examiner or Examiners acess you on the Table with various kinds of situations. In World Snooker system it's a lot simpler, and no Exams are involved, they just access you on the actual matches.

So yeah all this to say that once you are a certified referee, you can ref at both amateur and professional tournaments.


Thanks for the correction Andre. The course I had was impromptu conducted across two days by a former professional referee who would occasionally travel here to the US. At the end, I was tested quite informally and he gave me a certificate stating that I was Class 3 qualified and he explained at the time what that meant.

As for me, I really only took the course for the knowledge and experience and that was years ago. Of course, here in the US, I had no opportunity to actually referee anything remotely approaching a snooker match between competent players so I really paid no attention to what the Certification meant as I knew I would not be using it. It is a moot point now as I have not been re-Certified so I guess I have no Class. :chuckle: