forced out of the table
if a ball is forced out of the table I guess that a color will be spotted & a red wont. but the question is how many points will be scored !?
- bonoboz
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 04 November 2014
acesinc wrote:Roland, your answer is of course correct but very limited in scope. To be more general, any stroke which is foul may have had one or possibly more fouls occur during the course of the stroke. The point value awarded for any foul stroke will be the highest point value of any ball which was involved in any foul portion of the stroke but with minimum penalty of four points, maximum seven.
So for instance, striker is on red but has to pass very close to blue for his shot. Say he strikes very hard but grazes the blue first (would be a foul, five points), then white strikes red so hard that the red jumps off the table (would be foul, four points) then white rebounds off of three cushions, strikes black eventually knocking black into a pocket (would be foul, seven points).
In a refereed match, the referee will call "Foul" immediately upon the first infringement (as soon as white touches blue in this case) but the referee WILL NOT call a penalty point value until all balls come to rest (or at least until it is clear that there will be no further consequence) so in the described instance, "Foul............(white is bouncing around three cushions......black falls in pocket)...Player A seven."
So to specifically address the question at hand, the value of a ball forced off table penalty of course depends on which colour ball was involved (minimum penalty four, maximum seven).
acesinc wrote:Thanks, Andre. Definitely sounds like you have discussed and considered this in detail before. It's brand new to me, still trying to wrap my head around it. I seem to recall that there was a specific line in the Rules somewhere making it clear that a red forced off table must remain off table but I haven't been able to find it yet. Could just be bad memory on my part. I have some old versions of the rules as well so that may also be a part of my confusion.
Andre147 wrote:You are correct but you're forgetting one thing... If the striker was indeed playing a red which was the ball on and then just grazed the blue first and all the other things you mentioned, the referee too has to call Foul and a Miss if there were enough points on the table for his opponent to win. The Miss here really is important, because if the non-offender so wished he could have had all balls put back in their original position like blue and the black you mentioned, the only ball which would remain on the pocket is the red which was forced off the table, a red always remains on the pocket even if it was forced off the table and a Miss occured.
Odrl wrote:Just to add to the confusion a little...Andre147 wrote:You are correct but you're forgetting one thing... If the striker was indeed playing a red which was the ball on and then just grazed the blue first and all the other things you mentioned, the referee too has to call Foul and a Miss if there were enough points on the table for his opponent to win. The Miss here really is important, because if the non-offender so wished he could have had all balls put back in their original position like blue and the black you mentioned, the only ball which would remain on the pocket is the red which was forced off the table, a red always remains on the pocket even if it was forced off the table and a Miss occured.
I don't think this is correct. If the balls are replaced after a Miss, the referee will attempt to put all balls back to their original position, including any reds that were moved or pocketed during the shot, or even forced off the table in some other fashion.
Reds would only stay off the table if the non-offender put their opponent back in from the position left, or if he chose to play the shot himself.