Post a reply

Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby phil64btz

As I don't fully understand the rules about the ball "on" and the "nominated" ball (no free ball), I wonder if it is possible to pot a colour ball with a combination.

Here is a case describing the situation :

I've just potted a red and will now strike a colour.
The blue one is close to a pocket, but snookered by the yellow one.
I wish I could "nominate" the yellow one as the one I should strike first, and have the blue one "on", as being the one I wish to pot, after planted by the yellow.
Is this possible ?

Thanks for any advice :-)

Re: Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby Wildey

phil64btz wrote:As I don't fully understand the rules about the ball "on" and the "nominated" ball (no free ball), I wonder if it is possible to pot a colour ball with a combination.

Here is a case describing the situation :

I've just potted a red and will now strike a colour.
The blue one is close to a pocket, but snookered by the yellow one.
I wish I could "nominate" the yellow one as the one I should strike first, and have the blue one "on", as being the one I wish to pot, after planted by the yellow.
Is this possible ?

Thanks for any advice :-)

No that is not Possible.


However if its a free ball and you nominate a pink as a free ball for that 1 shot the pink becomes a red and therefore it is possible to hit the pink to pot a red but that's the only time that's possible.

Re: Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby phil64btz

Thank you Wildey and Dan-Cat for your answers.
I would appreciate if you could spare some time to give me the reference to the rules I would be breaking doing what I described. This might help me to understand them better.

Re: Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby Dan-cat

In my example, imagine the black ball is close to the middle pocket, making it a big pocket. You've potted a red, and play the yellow in-off the black into the middle pocket. Legal combination shot. As long as you hit the yellow first, it doesn't matter how it gets in the pocket as long as another ball doesn't go in.

Re: Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby acesinc

phil64btz wrote:Thank you Wildey and Dan-Cat for your answers.
I would appreciate if you could spare some time to give me the reference to the rules I would be breaking doing what I described. This might help me to understand them better.


Hi Phil. The best resource for the Rules of Snooker comes from the official WPBSA website. Specifically, the Rules in their most current form may be found here:

http://www.wpbsa.com/wp-content/uploads ... e-game.pdf

The Rules are updated occasionally so that if you have a printed version on hand from some time ago, it may be outdated. In any dispute, always best to check the current rule set.

In your query however, the governing Rule has been the same since about the beginning of time. As you stated you are somewhat confused by terms, let's start with Section 2. Definitions.

First, Section 2., Rule 11, Ball On:

"Any ball, which may be lawfully struck by the first impact of the cue-ball, or any ball which may not be so struck but which may be potted, is said to be on."

Breaking this down, it means that there are times when you have no choice which is the "ball on" such as when you step to the table and you MUST strike Red first, or in the colour sequence, you MUST strike the lowest value ball first. Then there are times when you may decide and nominate which is to be the "ball on" such as when you choose which colour you will strike first or when you have a free ball situation. Note the second part of the definition (after "...or any ball...") which is saying that it is possible for a ball to be considered to be a "ball on" so that it may be legally potted, but it may NOT be the first ball struck. An example of this would be in a Free Ball situation (say that Green has been nominated as Free Ball for Yellow) so that the Green MUST be struck first but the Yellow is still considered to be a "ball on" (as well as the Green), so that the Yellow may legally be potted and scored. This case of a Free Ball situation is the only case in which the type combination of which you speak may be played.

Next, Section 2., Rule 12, Nominated Ball:

"(a) A nominated ball is the object ball which the striker declares, or indicates to the satisfaction of the referee, he undertakes to hit with the first impact of the cue-ball.
(b) If requested by the referee, the striker must declare which ball he is on."

So this simply says that when the striker has the choice of which will be the "ball on" (the ball he intends to strike with first impact of the cue ball), he must make this intention clear to the Referee (or opponent in a non-refereed frame). This may be done verbally (in which case we say that the nomination has been "declared"), but very often, the "nominated ball" is non-verbal.....if the player is crouched to strike and his cue stick is pointed at his very obvious choice of "ball on", then that is generally enough to indicate to the Ref which is the "ball on". If a player is crouched to strike and there are two or more possible balls that could be on in the general direction his cue is pointing, then the player ought to declare his intention verbally or the Referee may call a foul. And that foul will remain even if the player protests, "But I hit the ball I was aiming at!" If there is any doubt, you should declare out loud.

So far, these have just been the Definitions so you better understand what the words mean. To finally answer your query of reference to the actual Rule, it is Section 3., Rule 10, Penalties:

"The following acts are fouls and incur a penalty of four points unless a higher one is
indicated in paragraphs (a) to (d) below. Penalties are:
...
(b) value of the ball on or ball concerned, whichever is higher, by:
...
(iii) causing a ball not on to enter a pocket;
(iv) causing the cue-ball to first hit a ball not on;
..."
________________________________

So finally, in your scenario, you just potted a Red. So you must nominate a Colour (whether verbal or non-verbal). Presumably, you will nominate Yellow as the Ball On and you strike it first. All legal. But now the Yellow strikes the Blue and the Blue falls in the pocket. This is now a foul stroke per above as you "...caus(ed) a ball not on to enter a pocket", in this case, five points away (value of the ball concerned, Blue). Or, quite obviously now, if you nominated Blue as your Ball On, but proceeded to strike Yellow first, then Foul, five away again. (In this case, five is the value of the Ball On rather than the ball concerned, Yellow. Penalties will always be doled out according to the maximum value of any balls involved in the foul; however, there will never be more than a single penalty assessed no matter how many individual, different fouls occurred during the course of the stroke.)
_________________________

On a side note (related but not specifically asked), if the foul above occurred whereby your struck Yellow first, then the Blue fell into the pocket, we do NOT say that the Blue was "potted". It was not. The term "Pot" is also defined in the Rules, Section 2. Definitions, 7.:

"A pot is when an object ball, after contact with another ball and without any infringement of these Rules, enters a pocket."

So that Blue was not potted as it was a foul stroke. A pot can only be a legal scoring stroke which allows the striker to continue his turn at the table. A ball which is pocketed in the course of a foul stroke is not considered to be potted even if it was intentional. For instance, say you played at the Black ball, it fell in the pocket, and the White continued round the table and White also fell in a pocket. You did NOT pot that Black as ultimately, the stroke was foul. A subtle nuance, but an important one to understand when it came to actually documenting the Rules.

Re: Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby phil64btz

Hi Dan-Cat and Acesinc,

and thank you for your answers.

As a French, English is not my mother language and I don't always measure the nuances written in the rules, as referenced by Acesinc. I've also tried to study the French translation, but didn't bring me the solution I was looking for. Another good reason to appreciate the quality of your posts.

Thanks to Dan-Cat, I now understand what "in-off" means, and have broadened my definition of a combination.

Thanks to Acesinc's detailed explanations and examples, I think I now get what a "ball On" is depending on the situations, and which rules I would break if I played the way I would have liked to. I also got the difference between "potted" and "pocketed" which I did not notice while reading the rules.

It would be great if the official rules could be supplemented by a set of examples and explanations, such as the ones given by Acesinc, not only to my question, but also to the "free ball" question (march 2015) which I found very instructive and useful.

Thanks again for your contributions.
All the best.
Phil.

Re: Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby Dan-cat

phil64btz wrote:...

Thanks to Dan-Cat, I now understand what "in-off" means, and have broadened my definition of a combination.
...


Glad to hear it. Now tell that to Wildey :P

There's a difference between a plant and a combination shot.

Great thread Phil 64 Bit :)

Re: Combination for potting one colour ball

Postby Dan-cat

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Excellent and informative explanation from Ace. He has a knack of bringing the rules to life through examples.


Absolutely. He is well-named. Aces!