Ball drops without interference

This (very unlikely) scenario would leave me unsure what to do.

A black (or any colour) is left teetering on the edge of the pocket on the previous shot.

I approach the table and play a red. I miss it and it travels around the table heading towards the teetering black. Before it reaches the black, the black drops in. The red follows it into the pocket, having not touched it.

What would be the procedure to follow?

Retire to the bar, and wait for AcesInc to post...

SnookerEd25 wrote:Retire to the bar, and wait for AcesInc to post...

I do think Ace will be the only one who could answer

Badsnookerplayer wrote:This (very unlikely) scenario would leave me unsure what to do.

A black (or any colour) is left teetering on the edge of the pocket on the previous shot.

I approach the table and play a red. I miss it and it travels around the table heading towards the teetering black. Before it reaches the black, the black drops in. The red follows it into the pocket, having not touched it.

What would be the procedure to follow?

Hi Player. This sort of thing does happen, balls fall in on their own, but extremely rare that it should happen like you suggest in your scenario. (Big surprise there, eh?) This same topic, similar circumstance has been covered in detail before so you may wish to read the whole thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=6844

but the actual answer to your question is in the very last post. How this situation would be officiated would actually end up according to the opinion of the official, i.e., the Referee, and so it may conceivably be handled differently by different Referees. It falls under the catch-all Section 5., Rule 1. referenced in that other thread. So if it were ME that is officiating this situation, this is my response...

In the interest of fair play, the Black ball fell of its own accord, not in control of the striker. Neither player should benefit from such a situation. If the balls are replaced and the stroke played again, obviously the striking player would benefit with another chance to pot the Red previously missed. If we were to assume that the fluke Red would have knocked in the Black and remained in the jaws, the incoming striker would obviously benefit with a gifted easy opening Red. Therefore, as Referee, I need to make my best judgement as to WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED had the Black not fallen in during transit. So my decision is Foul, seven away for the Red knocking Black in the pocket, the Red also follows the Black into the pocket (even if the Red seemed that it would hit at an angle, I will put it in the pocket as I cannot possibly predict with any accuracy how it would have reacted) and Player B is the new striker.

_____________________________

I do want to stress this is my own interpretation. Certainly, others may have a different opinion. There is no "right" answer because the Rules fully admit that not every conceivable situation can possibly be covered in the written Rules and that is why the special clause in Section 5. Rule 1. is there.


And if there is no Referee, just a friendly game, then SnookerEd's answer is the best: Order another pint, have a good laugh, and come to an agreement what you should do. Flip a coin if you have to; it is a gentlemen's game so if the players are in disagreement over what the actual call should be, then really you just need to come to an agreement of how to decide which call to use to continue. And if you lose the coin flip (or arm wrestle, or juggling contest, or whatever you want), then don't harbor resentment, just play the game.

Thanks Ace - I would have been completely lost as to the rule and what discretion to show. The other thread was useful; I especially enjoyed the Murphy-Dott clip.

Thanks again

I thought anyone interested in this thread may be interested in a couple of actual examples that occurred in my club over the years. One of the club members is a video buff and puts together montage videos of these sorts of thing.

Jumps to the YouTube video at the correct time stamp. The first clip is very close to BadSnookerPlayer's hypothetical but we did decide that the White was not likely to have struck Yellow so we replaced it.

https://youtu.be/u-igUZlUMio?t=105

acesinc wrote:I thought anyone interested in this thread may be interested in a couple of actual examples that occurred in my club over the years. One of the club members is a video buff and puts together montage videos of these sorts of thing.

Jumps to the YouTube video at the correct time stamp. The first clip is very close to BadSnookerPlayer's hypothetical but we did decide that the White was not likely to have struck Yellow so we replaced it.

https://youtu.be/u-igUZlUMio?t=105

Enjoyed that Aces - thanks!

Are you still getting a good bit of snooker played at the club?

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Enjoyed that Aces - thanks!

Are you still getting a good bit of snooker played at the club?

Hi Player! The club has always been tiny by your standards. Never had more than a dozen members at any given time and of those, a just a literal few show up on a weekly basis. The remainder would show up for a session every several months or perhaps once or twice a year. I don't think you UK chaps can have a vivid enough imagination to envision the barrenness of the snooker scene in these parts.

Anyway, have had the club open for about 7 years, never profitable, but activity pretty much continuously declined over that time (not unlike that downward spiral you described in that other thread ). My real business also took a downturn and I have since moved into a smaller space to recover, with some degree of success. I changed formats for club membership from just an hourly table charge to a monthly membership fee. Best move to make as it turns out. Players would rarely come out for a frame before because all the members live anywhere from 20 minutes away to as far as a 2 hour drive away. So apparently, when they would think about getting in the car and driving so far just for a few hours of snooker, they would just change their mind and stay home. When the finances looked so bad, I explained how desperately I needed their regular support so I went to the subscription format. A couple have said that was the best thing because now, when they need to consider the drive out to the club, they already had to pay their money whether they show up or not so they might as well make the drive. So club activity is decent to bring a few dollars in the door to help pay the rent. Myself, I am getting about 8 to 10 hours a week with a couple different club members.

When the boy is home from college, we have a blast and spend more nights than not in the club. His game is coming along nicely. Here is a video in the new place of a pretty good break by him. You can see that the space is a bit tighter. I think he gets a bit nerve-y near the end as he runs out of position on his last Black and has to go Pink instead. Following Red definitely pottable but he is on his highest break ever so I think he cracked under the pressure. A lot more of these to come I am certain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NjsqEdSI-I

You have to understand the general standards are pretty low around here as there are not any high talent players to raise the bar for everyone. Myself, I compile the highest breaks in our little club but that is not much to speak of....in the 20's quite often, manage a break of 30-something about once a session every three or four hours, and a 40-some once, maybe twice in a month. Half centuries just very occasionally. I have a major maintenance coming up...new cloth and level, and I am actually going to loosen up the pockets because mine are demonstrably tighter than the pro tournament tables. My table is a century old. I think back in the days of its manufacture, the rubber cushions were actually cut looser but the shelf of the pocket were set back about a quarter inch deeper. So today, my pockets are templated so the cushions are the same as the pro tables, but the shelf is still so deep so the pockets play punishingly tight. It is definitely discouraging for most players.

So after a lot of research, I have made the decision to actually grind the slates to open the pockets. Because of my mechanical engineering background, I am quite cautious about this decision but I am very comfortable with the information I have. Once I have the maintenance finished, I expect the club members will be happier and hopefully drop a few more dollars in the till because the balls will be falling with a bit more regularity. I also expect that after that, I ought to be making the half century a bit more often. Maybe a century one day. Hopefully, I will update you in a month or two when maintenance is finished.

I am full of admiration for the Aces club. It is a shame that the game hasn't taken off over there, but you are keeping the frame burning. The table looks nice and fast from what I can tell. Glad that the subscription format is paying off.

I enjoyed the video. Nice break from the boy despite some canine intervention. He plays at a nice pace with a good pause at the end of the backswing. He was up off that last shot quick - I know the feeling!

I must say that I hate playing on tight tables these days. I never understand why clubs don't make their pockets more generous so that new players can feel some success. The club I play in is good with four or five generous tables and then two hellish ones for the masochists.

Never give up on the century dream Aces. I think that it is harder to go from a 20/30 break player to making a half century - which you have done - to moving from half century to century. I look forward to hearing about it in the future.

Cheers!

In the original scenario, there was no foul and all the balls would be replaced and the shot played again.

The rule, which is quite difficult to read, says:

If it would have been hit by any ball involved in a stroke: (i) with no infringement of these Rules (including cases where an infringement would have occurred but for the ball falling into a pocket), all balls will be replaced and the same stroke played again, or a different stroke may be played at his discretion, by the same striker;

The key issue is whether a foul occurred before the ball dropped. In this case, the answer is no. The interests of fair play, I'm afraid, do not come into it.

Tim Dunkley (World Snooker coach)

Thanks for this reference Tim. Yes, I clearly dropped the ball on this one. My intuition goes against this because it gives the failed execution of the striker a second bite at the apple, but the bit in parentheses makes the ruling clear.

But I guess karma could also come into play here and the luck would even out in the end. As well as it being a Black (or other colour) perched on the edge that falls in on its own during the stroke at Red, thus avoiding the foul and so a second attempt by the would-be fouling striker, I suppose it could have just as easily been another Red that was perched there and fell in on its own before the moving Red could knock it in. By having to reset the position and play the stroke again, the would-be fluker then would lose out on his good fortune and have to play the stroke again perhaps failing completely the second time.

Thanks for the correction.

Yes, it's not ideal. But a lot of the rules are not ideal and could be re-written in a simplified and fairer way.

I had an unusual occurrence last night. My opponent had the black ball in the jaws of the pocket. I had one red left on the table. My opponent took his shot, missed black, thus giving me two shots. I approached the table to gauge my shot on red. Without me touching the table the black ball teetered over the edge and dropped. An unusual situation. What would your decision be?

Hello guys. I've tried posting this previously but can't find the post (I'm new on here).
Last night I played a competitive pool match. My opponent had the black ball in the jaws of a corner pocket. I had one red ball left on the table. My opponent missed the black leaving me with two shots. I approached the table to gauge the angles for my red ball, when the black ball teetered over the edge and dropped into the pocket. I had not touched the table. My opponents team immediately claimed the match. What would be your take on a ruling in this scenario please?

In snooker the black ball would be replaced just over the pocket I believe. I have no idea about pool though.