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PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Yesterday Tubberlad observed that Ronnie was 5th on the one year list this season, having won only one match in a major ranking and suggested that something is wrong. He actually suggested that the PTCs "weight" should be lower as compared to "major" rankers.
Now... let's consider this: Neil Robertson last season earned 7500 ranking points and £100 000 for winning 5 best of 5 matches and one best of 9 (World Open) over more than a week, in UK, last week he earned 2000 points and 10 000 Euros for winning 7 best of 7 matches over 2 days and a punishing schedule, having had to travel abroad (Warsaw Classic). Is this right? In my opinion no, it isn't, not at all. Just because the World Open has the tag "major" and is sponsored by BBC doesn't justify such discrepancy.
Similarly a top 16 player winning just one best of 9 in ranking tournament will earn at least nearly as many ranking point as a player winning 7 best of 7 in a PTC and will benefit from the protection of the seeding, which does not exist in PTCs.
So contrary to Tubberlad my opinion is that PTCs are not properly rewarded.
Now this will surprise some because I'm not a fan of the PTCs. The reason for my dislike however is not the concept; the concept is great. The reason for my dislike is precisely that they are not given proper resources to be the quality events they should be.
Barry Hearn wants to build a global professional circuit, then he should treat his players and referees as professionals. Professionals are not supposed to be off their pocket when doing their job properly, they are not supposed to play ranking matches without a referee, they are not supposed to play/work under iffy conditions and unreal schedules (see the complaints of a ref in Poland, see what Dave Hendon said about players still playing at 3 am, and I can assure you hat I have seen all sorts in the European PTCs I've attended). They are not supposed to be "blackmailed" to do their job under unacceptable conditions by the way the ranking system works.
When I speak about being off their pockets, here is a concrete example. In PTC4 (Fürth) Yu Delu lost his quarter finals match. His manager Django Fung borrowed my Mac to book his return flight. Django not being used neither to the Mac system, nor to the French/Belgian keyboard was in a struggle so I was asked to help... Yu's return flight costed about 400 Euros. His inbound flight must have costed a bit less, but not much (one way flights don't come cheap). He played his first match on the Friday, so he had 3 days accommodations and food to pay for, plus his entry fees, £100 (pounds, not Euros, when prize money is in Euros). Reaching the quarters earned him 1500 Euros. How much did he actually earn? And bear in mind that he had to play 5 matches, won 4, and was one of the lucky 8 out of 128 to reach that far in the competition, meaning 120 others got less, including 64 who got nothing at all. Is this a proper reward for a young professional, who works as an expat, thousands of miles away from his country and family? Don't tell me that "mediocrity" should not be rewarded. This isn't mediocrity.
If Barry Hearn wants the PTCs to be the backbone of snooker promotion in Europe, it has to give the events proper resources and rewards. If he does, the top players will stop seeing them as pointless and will try properly in them which is far from being the case for many of them.
You will tell me that the amount of money is limited. Right. Then use it wisely. Do we really need 6 ranking events in China, with huge travel expenses from the players (even the Chinese players live in UK for most of the year), administrative hassle, time difference etc... when there is no ranking event in Scotland (or Ireland, if rumours about PTC Grand Final going to Germany or Malta are true)? Is it really a priority to go and organise an event in Brazil, with ridiculous tix prices, and a ridiculous schedule in a posh resort? No, in my opinion. Not at all.
Instead make the PTCs worth the effort they ask from players and refs. Reduce them to 8 if needed, but make them quality, promote them with proper reward, mainly in prize money. Focus on Europe and Gloucester, or other venues allowing for audience in UK if needed.
And while I'm at it: one of the best aspects of the PTCs is amateurs involvement. These guys put time and money into them. A lot. The very minimum they deserve is to be treated fairly. Put some resources into that as well.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby N_Castle07

Sick to my back teeth of this kind of talk. When I started in my career I (like millions of others) was paid £50 a week for the first 18 months. When I did get a rise it was £12,000 a year which barely covered my living costs. I did this to climb the ladder and to get where I am today. My friend who works offshore on oil rigs give up his flat to get his deposit back just so he could do a course to get offshore. He had a terrible 12 months sleeping at various people’s houses but now he is earning a small fortune and loves his job. My point is there is 2 major factors to success;
1) Establish what you want to achieve and where you want to be
2) Establish what you are willing to pay (sacrifice) to achieve your goal

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Fair points made monique the right balance has to be reached

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

N_Castle07 wrote:Sick to my back teeth of this kind of talk. When I started in my career I (like millions of others) was paid £50 a week for the first 18 months. When I did get a rise it was £12,000 a year which barely covered my living costs. I did this to climb the ladder and to get where I am today. My friend who works offshore on oil rigs give up his flat to get his deposit back just so he could do a course to get offshore. He had a terrible 12 months sleeping at various people’s houses but now he is earning a small fortune and loves his job. My point is there is 2 major factors to success;
1) Establish what you want to achieve and where you want to be
2) Establish what you are willing to pay (sacrifice) to achieve your goal


I'm SICK of this kind of talk! You were not paid much but you were paid. You did not have to pay to work ... which is exactly what those guys have to do and that's not right by any account. At the very minimum they should be able to cover the expenses they have to expose to be able to do their jobs and - mind you! - entertain the likes of you. It's not about winning fortunes. It's about the basic right of people who work to be paid something, even minimal, not to have to pay to work and make others rich. Because, don't be fooled, some DO make money out of this.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

if players puts in the hours and wins the matches then no matter where he plays and wins he should be rewarded with it.

the ballance with PTC Ranking points is 100%

UK and World needs a increase and Germany,Wales and Australia needs to be on a par with Shanghai and China

Ronnie after Winning a Tournament Yesterday Moved from 17th to 16th in the Rankings hardly a massive Jump for a tournament Win.

if he wont be winning many matches in the remaining 7 Main Ranking Events of this season he wont be anywhere near 5th by the end of the season.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Casey

I think 2000 points per win is correct - 7 matches in 3 days.

Once we have a few more ranking events, especially closer to the end of the season the PTC points won't weight as heavily as they do now so it will be balanced out.

I do think the World Open was right to be awarded with higher points, ranking points should not be determined about the amount of frames you have to play but by the significance of the event. With the World Open I think Hearn was trying to build a 4th major which the tour can now sustain.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Wild wrote:if players puts in the hours and wins the matches then no matter where he plays and wins he should be rewarded with it.

the ballance with PTC Ranking points is 100%

UK and World needs a increase and Germany,Wales and Australia needs to be on a par with Shanghai and China

Ronnie after Winning a Tournament Yesterday Moved from 17th to 16th in the Rankings hardly a massive Jump for a tournament Win.

if he wont be wimning many matches in the remaining 7 Main Ranking Events of this season he wont be anywhere neat 5th by the end of the season.



Mon does go overboard at times but she has a point here some the working hours for these ptcs is abit to much

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Casey wrote:I think 2000 points per win is correct - 7 matches in 3 days.

Once we have a few more ranking events, especially closer to the end of the season the PTC points won't weight as heavily as they do now so it will be balanced out.

<ok>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

And I will add this: if players can't make a living out of the game. I'm not speaking of becoming rich, just make a living. What future do you reckon there is in the game if that's not the case? Who of you, as a parent, will encourage their kids to take on a profession that will lead them nowhere?
You don't build a global pro tour with a handful of exponents. For that to happen you need at least a few dozens of them making a decent living out of their sport.
Get real. People don't live out of love and thin air. They have to pay their bills, feed their family.
I'm not saying that players shouldn't make some sacrifices. I'm saying that resources should be used for the best and that in my opinion it would be much better for the future of the game to invest in proximity markets and better PTCs rather than spending money on pointless tournaments, in posh resorts where a glass of wine cost £7.50 in a country where most people are extremely poor.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Monique wrote:And I will add this: if players can't make a living out of the game. I'm not speaking of becoming rich, just make a living. What future do you reckon there is in the game if that's not the case? Who of you, as a parent, will encourage their kids to take on a profession that will lead them nowhere?
You don't build a global pro tour with a handful of exponents. For that to happen you need at least a few dozens of them making a decent living out of their sport.
Get real. People don't live out of love and thin air. They have to pay their bills, feed their family.
I'm not saying that players shouldn't make some sacrifices. I'm saying that resources should be used for the best and that in my opinion it would be much better for the future of the game to invest in proximity markets and better PTCs rather than spending money on pointless tournaments, in posh resorts where a glass of wine cost £7.50 in a country where most people are extremely poor.



<ok>

Love of the game doesnt pay the bills for the players and their families i agree 100 %

The right balance has to be found :wave:

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Casey

One thing I do disagree with Monique on is the 6 ranking events in China. First it wouldn't be 6 in China but 6 in Asia Pacific. Currently we have 3 events in the UK + 7 PTC events.

it could well get to a stage were by players base themselves in Asia rather than the UK, which is fine.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

A balance has to be found indeed. And the PTCs are the tool that will help to develop the game in Europe where there IS a market. Just look at the crowds in Germany, Belgium, Poland. That's where the future is for now. Those countries have federations, they start to have structures, they have youngsters wanting to take the game. Put the resources there. I'm not asking for fortunes. I'm asking for a decent reward for the job those guys do for our entertainment and pleasure.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby N_Castle07

Monique wrote:
N_Castle07 wrote:Sick to my back teeth of this kind of talk. When I started in my career I (like millions of others) was paid £50 a week for the first 18 months. When I did get a rise it was £12,000 a year which barely covered my living costs. I did this to climb the ladder and to get where I am today. My friend who works offshore on oil rigs give up his flat to get his deposit back just so he could do a course to get offshore. He had a terrible 12 months sleeping at various people’s houses but now he is earning a small fortune and loves his job. My point is there is 2 major factors to success;
1) Establish what you want to achieve and where you want to be
2) Establish what you are willing to pay (sacrifice) to achieve your goal


I'm SICK of this kind of talk! You were not paid much but you were paid. You did not have to pay to work ... which is exactly what those guys have to do and that's not right by any account. At the very minimum they should be able to cover the expenses they have to expose to be able to do their jobs and - mind you! - entertain the likes of you. It's not about winning fortunes. It's about the basic right of people who work to be paid something, even minimal, not to have to pay to work and make others rich. Because, don't be fooled, some DO make money out of this.


Acutally Mon I did have to pay to work in the early days and so did Robbo he came to the UK with only £500.00 in his back pocket. He stuck in knew where he wanted to be and now is a millionaire.
Last edited by N_Castle07 on 10 Oct 2011, edited 1 time in total.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Casey wrote:One thing I do disagree with Monique on is the 6 ranking events in China. First it wouldn't be 6 in China but 6 in Asia Pacific. Currently we have 3 events in the UK + 7 PTC events.

it could well get to a stage were by players base themselves in Asia rather than the UK, which is fine.


The rumours I've heard are of 6 events in China, irrespective of other events in Asia. No need at all for this.
But developing a parallel circuit in Asia, with their own events, at least up to certain level, is also on the cards and IMO a better option.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

N_Castle07 wrote:
Monique wrote:
N_Castle07 wrote:Sick to my back teeth of this kind of talk. When I started in my career I (like millions of others) was paid £50 a week for the first 18 months. When I did get a rise it was £12,000 a year which barely covered my living costs. I did this to climb the ladder and to get where I am today. My friend who works offshore on oil rigs give up his flat to get his deposit back just so he could do a course to get offshore. He had a terrible 12 months sleeping at various people’s houses but now he is earning a small fortune and loves his job. My point is there is 2 major factors to success;
1) Establish what you want to achieve and where you want to be
2) Establish what you are willing to pay (sacrifice) to achieve your goal


I'm SICK of this kind of talk! You were not paid much but you were paid. You did not have to pay to work ... which is exactly what those guys have to do and that's not right by any account. At the very minimum they should be able to cover the expenses they have to expose to be able to do their jobs and - mind you! - entertain the likes of you. It's not about winning fortunes. It's about the basic right of people who work to be paid something, even minimal, not to have to pay to work and make others rich. Because, don't be fooled, some DO make money out of this.


Acutally Mon I did have to pay to work in the early days and so did Robbo he came to the UK with only £500.00 in his back pocket. He stuck in knew where he wanted to be and now is a millionaire.


Robbo had to pay insofar he had to make financial sacrifices to get where he wanted, move to UK, live scarcely. I'm not challenging that. He had to pay his entry fees in tournaments, OK. But he did not have to play, and win several matches and still not earn anything which is the case in many tournaments now. Wins in early rounds in the German Masters are not "paid" at all. This is penalizing the rookies more than anyone else. It's absolutely unfair and makes it very hard for the young to progress.
Igor Figuereido managed to stay on the tour but isn't playing this season because he can't face the expenses.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this

Re: PTCs reward

Postby N_Castle07

Monique wrote:
N_Castle07 wrote:
Monique wrote:
N_Castle07 wrote:Sick to my back teeth of this kind of talk. When I started in my career I (like millions of others) was paid £50 a week for the first 18 months. When I did get a rise it was £12,000 a year which barely covered my living costs. I did this to climb the ladder and to get where I am today. My friend who works offshore on oil rigs give up his flat to get his deposit back just so he could do a course to get offshore. He had a terrible 12 months sleeping at various people’s houses but now he is earning a small fortune and loves his job. My point is there is 2 major factors to success;
1) Establish what you want to achieve and where you want to be
2) Establish what you are willing to pay (sacrifice) to achieve your goal


I'm SICK of this kind of talk! You were not paid much but you were paid. You did not have to pay to work ... which is exactly what those guys have to do and that's not right by any account. At the very minimum they should be able to cover the expenses they have to expose to be able to do their jobs and - mind you! - entertain the likes of you. It's not about winning fortunes. It's about the basic right of people who work to be paid something, even minimal, not to have to pay to work and make others rich. Because, don't be fooled, some DO make money out of this.


Acutally Mon I did have to pay to work in the early days and so did Robbo he came to the UK with only £500.00 in his back pocket. He stuck in knew where he wanted to be and now is a millionaire.


Robbo had to pay insofar he had to make financial sacrifices to get where he wanted, move to UK, live scarcely. I'm not challenging that. He had to pay his entry fees in tournaments, OK. But he did not have to play, and win several matches and still not earn anything which is the case in many tournaments now. Wins in early rounds in the German Masters are not "paid" at all. This is penalizing the rookies more than anyone else. It's absolutely unfair and makes it very hard for the young to progress.
Igor Figuereido managed to stay on the tour but isn't playing this season because he can't face the expenses.



Well it’s simple then. Players need to look at their income and out goings establish what they need to do to cover costs (what round they need to reach) and what they need to do make a living. If they fail to do this they need to go back to the drawing board and establish what they need to do to get to the level they need to. If they still fail to do this they need to look at their finances have a hard look in the mirror and consider throwing in the towel and leave it to players who are positive and ambitious.
The amount of negativity in some players and fans is staggering Hearn is good but he is not a miracle worker. Players have more opportunity to make a living now than ever before it’s down to them and their level of desire and professionalism.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Wild wrote:we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this


name me one company, any age, where employees have to pay for the right to work and becoming poorer for it.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby N_Castle07

As discussed earlier I had to pay to work and so do millions of apprentices its called life.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby mishcka

Monique wrote:
Wild wrote:we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this


name me one company, any age, where employees have to pay for the right to work and becoming poorer for it.


sorry to interfer :emb: ... but snooker is not a day job. It is like any other sport/art players (specially young and upcoming players etc) have to make most of the effort. and with the recession, and snooker declining popularity, players have to make sacrifices. it is not ideal situations but hopefully the future will be better :D

Having said that I agree that it is better to plan tournaments such that it is not a rip off for young players to participate in them, and use 5 stars resorts for invitational events only.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

N_Castle07 wrote:As discussed earlier I had to pay to work and so do millions of apprentices its called life.


If you're speaking of apprentices, that's a different thing. It's like studies, not proper pro life. Those guys are supposed to be professionals.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby N_Castle07

Monique wrote:
N_Castle07 wrote:As discussed earlier I had to pay to work and so do millions of apprentices its called life.


If you're speaking of apprentices, that's a different thing. It's like studies, not proper pro life. Those guys are supposed to be professionals.


I was paid a low wage but my boss gave my the opotunity to earn extra if I put the hard work in. BH has done the same to players. Its simple in my eyes and fair exceed or don't. Out of interest what is your solution to this problem which you think occures? And where would the extra money come from?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Have you read my post above? There is no need for extra money. There is a need to use better what is available in the tournaments that bring something valuable and PTCs are in that category. Stupid Brazil Masters, or late Bahrain are not.
And you were paid a low wage. It was low but at least that was guaranteed. Today lower ranked players are paid NOTHING for actually winning matches in some tournaments, but have to expose expenses to take part. That's what I object to.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby sundaygirl

Monique wrote:
Wild wrote:we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this


name me one company, any age, where employees have to pay for the right to work and becoming poorer for it.

The House of Commons, the use and abuse of internes may well become the new expenses scandal. Students in their final year of studies are being offered placements in MPs offices and working full time hours without pay plus paying half fees to their uni.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Monique wrote:Have you read my post above? There is no need for extra money. There is a need to use better what is available in the tournaments that bring something valuable and PTCs are in that category. Stupid Brazil Masters, or late Bahrain are not.
And you were paid a low wage. It was low but at least that was guaranteed. Today lower ranked players are paid NOTHING for actually winning matches in some tournaments, but have to expose expenses to take part. That's what I object to.


I agree 100%.

Especially Brazil was a failure and a waste of money. It wasn't interesting for MOST of the fans because there was nothing to play for and it wasn't helping the not established player because they couldn't take part but only see how valuable money was given to players who have enough.

Also I'm not convinced whether the Brazil snooker market should be the next big target. It's always warm and nice, not the kind of weather you want to play snooker. How many people are interested in snooker there?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Snooker Overdrive wrote:
Monique wrote:Have you read my post above? There is no need for extra money. There is a need to use better what is available in the tournaments that bring something valuable and PTCs are in that category. Stupid Brazil Masters, or late Bahrain are not.
And you were paid a low wage. It was low but at least that was guaranteed. Today lower ranked players are paid NOTHING for actually winning matches in some tournaments, but have to expose expenses to take part. That's what I object to.


I agree 100%.

Especially Brazil was a failure and a waste of money. It wasn't interesting for MOST of the fans because there was nothing to play for and it wasn't helping the not established player because they couldn't take part but only see how valuable money was given to players who have enough.

Also I'm not convinced whether the Brazil snooker market should be the next big target. It's always warm and nice, not the kind of weather you want to play snooker. How many people are interested in snooker there?



brazil was a mistake totally agree

<ok>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Casey

Brazil was only a mistake if it cost World snooker money - it was set up by 3rd party promoters so I don't think WS were out of pocket.

If the funds for a tournament did not come from WS what is the harm in the event?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Casey wrote:Brazil was only a mistake if it cost World snooker money - it was set up by 3rd party promoters so I don't think WS were out of pocket.

If the funds for a tournament did not come from WS what is the harm in the event?



Brazil was like another bahrain no real interest in sn0oker in either country

Maybe barry and his team should do some research before picking out a country to host an event as both brazil and bahrain were as pointless as each other IMO.

Wild can say what he likes but i think alot of the top players realised brazil would be a white elephant and be a flop with or without their participation.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

sundaygirl wrote:
Monique wrote:
Wild wrote:we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this


name me one company, any age, where employees have to pay for the right to work and becoming poorer for it.

The House of Commons, the use and abuse of internes may well become the new expenses scandal. Students in their final year of studies are being offered placements in MPs offices and working full time hours without pay plus paying half fees to their uni.


Well as you write is IS abuse of authority, it's not right.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Casey

GJ wrote:
Casey wrote:Brazil was only a mistake if it cost World snooker money - it was set up by 3rd party promoters so I don't think WS were out of pocket.

If the funds for a tournament did not come from WS what is the harm in the event?



Brazil was like another bahrain no real interest in sn0oker in either country

Maybe barry and his team should do some research before picking out a country to host an event as both brazil and bahrain were as pointless as each other IMO.

Wild can say what he likes but i think alot of the top players realised brazil would be a white elephant and be a flop with or without their participation.


If it didn't cost World snooker anything, how can it be a mistake or a waste of time?