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Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Casey wrote:
GJ wrote:
Casey wrote:Brazil was only a mistake if it cost World snooker money - it was set up by 3rd party promoters so I don't think WS were out of pocket.

If the funds for a tournament did not come from WS what is the harm in the event?



Brazil was like another bahrain no real interest in sn0oker in either country

Maybe barry and his team should do some research before picking out a country to host an event as both brazil and bahrain were as pointless as each other IMO.

Wild can say what he likes but i think alot of the top players realised brazil would be a white elephant and be a flop with or without their participation.


If it didn't cost World snooker anything, how can it be a mistake or a waste of time?


Because there are other countries who have far more interest in snooker and hosting events in them other countries would be far more benficial for snooker in the long term than having an event in brazil where the interest is minimal.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Monique wrote:
Wild wrote:we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this


name me one company, any age, where employees have to pay for the right to work and becoming poorer for it.

name me one company that doesent expect theire employers to work ?

and if you refuse ur sacked.

they dont get entry forms to fill in to go to work in dubai or decide not to.

players cant have their cake and eat it.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

Wild wrote:
Monique wrote:
Wild wrote:we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this


name me one company, any age, where employees have to pay for the right to work and becoming poorer for it.

name me one company that doesent expect theire employers to work ?

and if you refuse ur sacked.

they dont get entry forms to fill in to go to work in dubai or decide not to.

players cant have their cake and eat it.


Any company that works with free-lances works this way. They have jobs on offer, you take them or you don't. But if you take them and do the work, you are paid. How much might depend on various things but you get paid. Players are not WSA employees, they are more like free-lances. As a freelance, if a job forces you to expose expenses that you can't afford, you don't take it. You will not be scraped from the companies' list because of that, or lose your professional status.
The way it's working now in snooker is that the ranking system does actually force the players to enter events even when they know that they will probably be off their pockets doing so. If only a minority of players, who don't perform, are put in that situation, then OK, they are probably not good enough for the job and they should do something else. But when it's actually a majority who is exposed to that risk it means that something is wrong with the way the sport is run because on the longer term it will kill it completely.
The price money has increased from about 50%. The number of tournaments has gone from 6 to 27 which represent and increase of 350%. It's not difficult to realise that this means that the resources available for each tournament "individually" has gone down significantly. On the other hand, players have now to pay for their travel expenses and accommodations outside UK, which wasn't the case before, and the amount of traveling required has exploded.
Most players today, especially the low ranked ones, get less than before while they work a lot more. That's not a healthy situation.

The total amount of money is limited. But the way it's used could be "rethought". Just imagine that the WC first prize was going down to £200 000 instead of £250 000, the runner-up prize also being diminished a bit. It would still be a very decent amount to earn. And that the number of PTCs was reduced to 8 instead of 12. With the additional money and less events, each event could offer the players a more decent earning, especially in the early rounds. Or, for the players who have to travel, a minimal "travel cost" amount could be provided for instance. The same amount irrespective of ranking. This would help the low ranked players a lot.

Another idea. WSA could try to negotiate deals with airlines ahead of abroad ranking events. They do it for hotel fees to an extend. This might help players to get better deals. They know how many players will travel, if not who they will be exactly. I know it's not that simple. The players might not travel alone, they might flight early for various reasons ... but why not try and see how it works.

If people put their mind to it, I'm sure there is plenty that can be done. But it's asking for thinking. While just having the players - and amateurs - to finance the game is the lazy solution. A lazy solution that has its limits because as hard as they try, people can't give what they don't have.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Casey

[quoteAnother idea. WSA could try to negotiate deals with airlines ahead of abroad ranking events. They do it for hotel fees to an extend. This might help players to get better deals. They know how many players will travel, if not who they will be exactly. I know it's not that simple. The players might not travel alone, they might flight early for various reasons ... but why not try and see how it works.

][/quote]

I thought the SPA - snooker players assoiation - was doing this for the players?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

theres a lot of things that need looking at but give it time lol

already they decided to move europe to sheffield

davehendon David Hendon
Am hearing PTC11 will be in Sheffield but played in the Badminton Hall

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

and Dave's explanation is
anyone can reel off countries but someone has to pay for it all
which support my point exactly. Remote venues cost. PTCs should be there to develop the game in Europe, where there clearly is a growing market, but is not given enough resources, either for logistic or for correct reward of the players. Meanwhile the World Open was moved from Scotland to China , a pointless tournament was organised in Brazil and we might have another in India come March. It's supposed to be ranking, with qualifs and toutim, and isn't confirmed yet...

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Monique wrote:and Dave's explanation is
anyone can reel off countries but someone has to pay for it all
which support my point exactly. Remote venues cost. PTCs should be there to develop the game in Europe, where there clearly is a growing market, but is not given enough resources, either for logistic or for correct reward of the players. Meanwhile the World Open was moved from Scotland to China , a pointless tournament was organised in Brazil and we might have another in India come March. It's supposed to be ranking, with qualifs and toutim, and isn't confirmed yet...

monique get that straight out of your head NOW

Brazil was anything but pointless you can not concentrate on hotspots you have to spread the game about for servival...

all this china thing is slightly concerning if im honest so im glad they went to Auss and Brazil.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby MarkSelbyNo1Fan

If you travel all over the world for your career then in my opinion you should get a good reward for it. Times are tough at the minute.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

MarkSelbyNo1Fan wrote:If you travel all over the world for your career then in my opinion you should get a good reward for it. Times are tough at the minute.

exactly

so how does World Snooker pluck all this money out of thin air then ??

Re: PTCs reward

Postby mediter

Seeing is believing.

If I see you constructing your "high break 87" with reds and yellow with some great potting and innovation then I believe you are at least a very good player. But if only your posting here is somewhat "suspicious", I may have some thoughts about your sincereceness ans maybe you are just a manipulator, no ??

Seeing is believing.

During the last winter, here were some manipulators who were "targeting" wild´s posting style, for exemple. I personally know who these guys are, and it was all about situation going on here in Finland.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Wild wrote:
Monique wrote:and Dave's explanation is
anyone can reel off countries but someone has to pay for it all
which support my point exactly. Remote venues cost. PTCs should be there to develop the game in Europe, where there clearly is a growing market, but is not given enough resources, either for logistic or for correct reward of the players. Meanwhile the World Open was moved from Scotland to China , a pointless tournament was organised in Brazil and we might have another in India come March. It's supposed to be ranking, with qualifs and toutim, and isn't confirmed yet...

monique get that straight out of your head NOW

Brazil was anything but pointless you can not concentrate on hotspots you have to spread the game about for servival...

all this china thing is slightly concerning if im honest so im glad they went to Auss and Brazil.


Brazil was pointless. Hearn probably looked at a world map, started thinking, looked at the big piece of land in the south western area and thought: hmm, that's a place we haven't been, let's make a tournament there!

But to make things worse he also decides not to make it a proper ranking tournament and it becomes an totally unimportant event for old-timers (Hendry, Ebdon, Davis) and players who have too much time (Selby, Murphy).

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Sickpotter

Monique wrote:
Wild wrote:we going round and round in circles here monique every bloody time.

yes things not right but ffs its only been 18 months if that name me one company that had to start from scratch which World Snooker had to once they cleared the deadwood and be perfect in 18 months....its work in progress.

and unless players realise that then they really are in cloud coocoo land on this


name me one company, any age, where employees have to pay for the right to work and becoming poorer for it.


All skilled employment comes at a cost. If you're a lawyer, engineer, tradesman, etc. you spent money and time to learn your craft.

Snooker is no different.

The hope is that in the long run the investment you make in your chosen path in life pays off. Paying to play/work as a snooker pro is IMO no different from any other job, you just take different classes to get there.

Players should think of PTCs as your university/tradeschool degree that eventually translates into a good living.

A cost to an education has prevented many from their chosen path in life, why should it be any different for professional snooker players?

I'm not saying they couldn't find a way to cheapen the cost to players for these events but it's naive to think one can pursue a career that can net you millions for no investment of capital.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Bourne

I don't get this chat of the longer matches have to be rewarded with more points, why so black and white ? Snooker should embrace the different challenges, winning a BO35 match is obviously the pinnacle but why should BO11s be so much more rewarded than BO5 when in essence it's just as difficult to win both ? I'm very keen to have the Shootout ranked asap and that should be well catered for points-wise because it would be such a high-pressure, high-octane format.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

Okay, say we accept Sickpotter's way of looking at it and people do pay in life before they get there. So then we can say that the players from a few years back more than paid their way to get to where they are via the Blackpool qualifying school which was both brutal and costly. To think now that those who have made it should now dig deeper into their own pockets, which is basically what is happening every week if you dont get to at least a second round or in the case of the Scottish players a third round because of the extra travel involved is ludicrous. And before we get the it's for the good of the game in the future, well that's just rubbish because you can bet that no matter what gets said the players are there to look after themselves and their families now.

And while we are on about costs, now that the players have to pay their own way in the proper foreign rankers the WSA should be assisting with trying to get decent rates as previously they were doing block bookings for players and staff. It's now difficult to get a decent rate on a long haul flight. You cant book an open ticket as it's just far too costly and again the Scottish players are penalised by having to pay extra as nine times out of ten they have to travel to London to get a flight. They are not making as much as you might think but now, for the good of the game in the future you want them to dish out and cost themselves more because a particular idea might work?. I don't think so.

As for ranking points, well, I would not give ranking points to any tournament that was best of five or under and the idea of giving the shootout ranking points is just laughably moronic. It's just a fun tournament, one frame.

I have been shot down in the past as trying to protect the top 16 by suggesting that The Masters be given Ranking points similar to the ATP Champions Tour in Tennis. Well, how is it protecting the Top 16 if the Top 16 is now more fluid?. In my opinion, next season the PTC'S should be the best 6 results from 9 or 9 from 12 if they stay with 12 PTC'S. This would give players more breathing room.

Also the season has to be restructured much much better than it has been this season to spread the travel a bit more and help given in organizing flights etc at a reasonable rate.
This is not a criticism of Hearn, who has done a great job but even he must realise the Calendar , albeit full, is a total mess. A little restructure would work wonders.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Snooker Overdrive wrote:
Wild wrote:
Monique wrote:and Dave's explanation is
anyone can reel off countries but someone has to pay for it all
which support my point exactly. Remote venues cost. PTCs should be there to develop the game in Europe, where there clearly is a growing market, but is not given enough resources, either for logistic or for correct reward of the players. Meanwhile the World Open was moved from Scotland to China , a pointless tournament was organised in Brazil and we might have another in India come March. It's supposed to be ranking, with qualifs and toutim, and isn't confirmed yet...

monique get that straight out of your head NOW

Brazil was anything but pointless you can not concentrate on hotspots you have to spread the game about for servival...

all this china thing is slightly concerning if im honest so im glad they went to Auss and Brazil.


Brazil was pointless. Hearn probably looked at a world map, started thinking, looked at the big piece of land in the south western area and thought: hmm, that's a place we haven't been, let's make a tournament there!

But to make things worse he also decides not to make it a proper ranking tournament and it becomes an totally unimportant event for old-timers (Hendry, Ebdon, Davis) and players who have too much time (Selby, Murphy).

you talking absolutely total bullocks with out a clue in hell

taking a ranking event in to brazil without doing any ground work would have been the pointless part ..

how do you think theres Snooker in China ???

ill tell you how with groundwork these types of event created over 20+ years

go back to school learn something about the history of where tournaments came from then start talking when you understand that.

unbelievable how ignorant people are <doh>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Bourne

That's the way wild, nice and easy :chuckle:

I agree with him though, Brazil was a good idea in theory but it turned into a bit of a farce in the end with no-one caring except for points-whore Murphy. Regardless of what might or might not happen in the future, the tournament itself was a bit crap.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

I do not believe cancelling the PTC's would be a good idea. They serve their purpose and if money was there I would increase the prize money but not the ranking points. If they were reduced to nine That saved money should be added to the PTC Prize fund. There also has to be some way of securing some sort of prize money for those players ranked 64-96. At least enough to make it worthwhile to participate.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby randam05

Im totally with Monique on this one.

When you travel to watch PTCS, which a lot of you havent. You can really see how muchbloody hard work a player has to do to win one! They definitley deserve more reward. I say get rid of ones in sheffield and put one in devon! Nah seriously, just get rid of sheffield and spread them a lot further, and like monique says, reduce to 8 if needed and put more effort into them ones!

Good topic mon.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Bourne

randam05 wrote:Im totally with Monique on this one.

When you travel to watch PTCS, which a lot of you havent. You can really see how muchbloody hard work a player has to do to win one! They definitley deserve more reward. I say get rid of ones in sheffield and put one in devon! Nah seriously, just get rid of sheffield and spread them a lot further, and like monique says, reduce to 8 if needed and put more effort into them ones!

Good topic mon.

A player has to work hard to win any tournament, don't see why the PTCs are any different. In fact it's gota be much harder to win the PL considering the players there that turn up every week and in different, more challenging match conditions.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

randam05 wrote:Im totally with Monique on this one.

When you travel to watch PTCS, which a lot of you havent. You can really see how muchbloody hard work a player has to do to win one! They definitley deserve more reward. I say get rid of ones in sheffield and put one in devon! Nah seriously, just get rid of sheffield and spread them a lot further, and like monique says, reduce to 8 if needed and put more effort into them ones!

Good topic mon.

reduce to 8 is definitly the way but seriously fans and players has to get real here the players want to play they get chance to play and whinging every bloody corner.

nobody asked them to be pros lets them go down the pits let them work on a rock face let them work down a cold dark tunnell in december for peanuts let them get out of bed at 5.30am all weathers delivering milk.

snooker is getting a full time job now getting things right will take bloody time any player if you want ill get them a aplication form to work in a welsh quarry any takers ??

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Bourne

Wild wrote:
randam05 wrote:Im totally with Monique on this one.

When you travel to watch PTCS, which a lot of you havent. You can really see how muchbloody hard work a player has to do to win one! They definitley deserve more reward. I say get rid of ones in sheffield and put one in devon! Nah seriously, just get rid of sheffield and spread them a lot further, and like monique says, reduce to 8 if needed and put more effort into them ones!

Good topic mon.

reduce to 8 is definitly the way but seriously fans and players has to get real here the players want to play they get chance to play and whinging every bloody corner.

nobody asked them to be pros lets them go down the pits let them work on a rock face let them work down a cold dark tunnell in december for peanuts let them get out of bed at 5.30am all weathers delivering milk.

snooker is getting a full time job now getting things right will take bloody time any player if you want ill get them a aplication form to work in a welsh quarry any takers ??

Truth is wild, you've never been a pro snooker player so don't probably understand how much work it takes in and out of competition to reach their level. Hell I don't even think you've picked up a cue in the last few years you might have mentioned ?

It basically comes down to do we want a tour where we get few tournaments but higher standard, or loads of tournaments and players only really being able to peak once or twice a year ?

I know which i'd choose <ok>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

yes my heart bleeds for them rofl

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

they don't know their born if they think a weekend playing snooker from day to night is hard graft rofl

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Bourne

Wild wrote:they don't know their born if they think a weekend playing snooker from day to night is hard graft rofl

Do you actually know how to read or are you just pretending not to know ? :shrug:

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

if players cant manage a few PTC and also maintain a high enough level to play majors sorry but snooker is not for them.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Wild wrote:
Snooker Overdrive wrote:
Wild wrote:
Monique wrote:and Dave's explanation is
anyone can reel off countries but someone has to pay for it all
which support my point exactly. Remote venues cost. PTCs should be there to develop the game in Europe, where there clearly is a growing market, but is not given enough resources, either for logistic or for correct reward of the players. Meanwhile the World Open was moved from Scotland to China , a pointless tournament was organised in Brazil and we might have another in India come March. It's supposed to be ranking, with qualifs and toutim, and isn't confirmed yet...

monique get that straight out of your head NOW

Brazil was anything but pointless you can not concentrate on hotspots you have to spread the game about for servival...

all this china thing is slightly concerning if im honest so im glad they went to Auss and Brazil.


Brazil was pointless. Hearn probably looked at a world map, started thinking, looked at the big piece of land in the south western area and thought: hmm, that's a place we haven't been, let's make a tournament there!

But to make things worse he also decides not to make it a proper ranking tournament and it becomes an totally unimportant event for old-timers (Hendry, Ebdon, Davis) and players who have too much time (Selby, Murphy).

you talking absolutely total fluffy bunnies with out a clue in hell

taking a ranking event in to brazil without doing any ground work would have been the pointless part ..

how do you think theres Snooker in China ???

ill tell you how with groundwork these types of event created over 20+ years

go back to school learn something about the history of where tournaments came from then start talking when you understand that.

unbelievable how ignorant people are <doh>


I knew you would be happy with my post. :chuckle:

But seriously, we already talked the Brazil Masters and I asked the question WHY it would be (more) pointless to give away ranking points and make the tournament available to every player on the tour? It doesn't even have to be a proper ranking event, we could have included it in the PTC series. There was a total amount of $200,000 price money involved, that's four times more than a PTC. Why shouldn't all player profit from that money, Wild?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

<laugh>

these events are the reason theres 3 Rankers in china this season.

Barry Hearn first took snooker to china in 1985 it was another 7 or 8 years before they staged their first Ranking Event without him starting something then who knows china might have been big on Dominoes Today.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Bourne

Wild they could have chosen anywhere in the world, imagine they went to Turkmenistan instead of Brazil, and only Murphy, Selby, Harold and a few amateur locals played with two men and their dog watching ... would you have called that the start of a brave new world ? No. So why does this have to be any different ? It was a failure i'm afraid.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Bourne wrote:Wild they could have chosen anywhere in the world, imagine they went to Turkmenistan instead of Brazil, and only Murphy, Selby, Harold and a few amateur locals played with two men and their dog watching ... would you have called that the start of a brave new world ? No. So why does this have to be any different ? It was a failure i'm afraid.

it wasn't a failure what you on ???

it was far more successful than first time in china or germany.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Wild wrote:<laugh>

these events are the reason theres 3 Rankers in china this season.

Barry Hearn first took snooker to china in 1985 it was another 7 or 8 years before they staged their first Ranking Event without him starting something then who knows china might have been big on Dominoes Today.


You still didn't answer my question, AGAIN. :telloff: