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Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

Brazil, while it was not a futile gesture by any means but it was hurried and handled shoddily in my opinion. There must have been opportunities later in the season so that players would not be travelling back to back from Shanghai. Also the choice of venue for these things needs to be approved. I have no doubt someone made money from the choice but for the ordinary Brazillian fan the prices were way out of reach. I am told snooker is very popular in the region so why it was felt that the target audience had to be more up market is surely something that needs to be addressed.

Now, not wanting to overly make my point but whether or not top players were involved or not expenses were an issue. You obviously had some players who felt they were worth more than others. You had some who wanted to be with their families after Shanghai. All this might have been mitigated to some extent had the dates been somewhere in the future.

It is Barry Hearn's job to promote the game and he is very good at that and yes.he needs the players to cooperate to an extent so might I suggest he has more of a dialogue with them before announcing Invitation tournaments, purely to get an idea of those willing to attend for the fee that has been negotiated. Then when the Tourney is announced there should be no call off's and the posters etc will reflect who is actually playing. (Except in Graeme's case as he never gets mentioned or put on a poster anyways) :sad:

Hearn is a communicator, he needs to do that to the players though.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

did you enjoy your dinner <laugh>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby gallantrabbit

Snooky - yes I agree you on the venue. There did seem to be some strange thinking going on whereby they linked the game of snooker with tennis and golf. The Brasil Open is happening in tennis here in SP soon and I will check out the ticket prices, (although I know the tops won't be here.)
You could argue about expenses but I do think players have got short memories and the example I've used before is John Higgins. This is a player who should be rather grateful firstly for still being allowed to play the game and also to Hearn for saving him a job on the promotional side of snooker. I'm not saying Higgins was guilty but he certaily got himself into a questionable situation and didn't own up about it straight away.
Also Higgins had been trailing round Europe for two seasons trying to open up new markets and counting on the support of top players for little money, (exactly what Hearn was doing). Why then did he snub Brazil? He's world champion and if he'd have come, more of the other little group would have been reluctant to turn up their noses.
I'm not making Higgins a scapegoat, I just think that after all Hearn has done to lift the game, he deserves the true backing of all the top boys even if they're not making packets of money all the time.
If Higgins, Ronnie, Robbo and others had come over there'd have been even more noise about getting a venue move to SP next time out. There would still have been a problem with the venue/crowds this time out, but more whetting of the appetite to demand more snooker in Brazil.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby vodkadiet

Muppet147 wrote:So Hearn has set about destroying the UK. How long before he turns the World Championship into best of 11 shot clock rubbish?


This may be intended as a joke, but if Hearn has his way the World Championship will be reduced to 10 days very soon, no doubt about it. I am not sure which year it will happen, but it will happen. Shot clocks will be introduced, no doubt.

Barry Hearn is evil, obsessed with money, and little else.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Sickpotter

Can someone tell me what the television figures were for Brazil? For all the arguments about venue, attendence, etc. the reality is the money comes from TV ratings. Prior ratings were what got the event staged in the first place so it would seem relevant info. when discussing it's success or lack there of.

IMO PTCs are harder to win for one reason only and that's the short format. The number of frames a player may have to play, the lack of seeding protection, etc. mean nothing by comparison.

Because you've a field of 128 players who are all capable of at least a four frame purple patch you reduce your ability to seperate the good from the great. That's what makes these events hard to win, little else.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

Wild wrote:did you enjoy your dinner <laugh>

I did mate, once I remembered to turn on the oven :john:

Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

gallantrabbit wrote:You could argue about expenses but I do think players have got short memories and the example I've used before is John Higgins. This is a player who should be rather grateful firstly for still being allowed to play the game and also to Hearn for saving him a job on the promotional side of snooker. I'm not saying Higgins was guilty but he certaily got himself into a questionable situation and didn't own up about it straight away.


My view on expenses are simple, seeing as they have to now pay their own way make the appearance fee along with the prize money enough to make it worthwhile going, not extorting the sponsors for thousands but enough to justify going. Obviously the ones who ended up participating thought that the money was okay.

Also, dont forget a country's withholding can can decimate any players fee or prize money. Look at Mark Williams, went to Australia, finished runner up and got 9 grand after tax. Now I dont know about nowadays because it's been a while since I have been involved in this side of it but I am not sure how much of that can be offset against UK Tax, whether it's all of it or just a part and thats assuming that the country involved has a Tax agreement with the UK, which Australia and China has but I dont know about Brazil.

All views expressed are my own and not that of any player.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Bourne

No way he'll touch the Worlds format, i'm certain of that.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Bourne wrote:No way he'll touch the Worlds format, i'm certain of that.

he would be pretty stupid if he did anyway.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Wild wrote:
Bourne wrote:No way he'll touch the Worlds format, i'm certain of that.

he would be pretty stupid if he did anyway.



When he took his position he said 100 % the majors wont be touched :gag:

so anything can happen :?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

GJ wrote:
Wild wrote:
Bourne wrote:No way he'll touch the Worlds format, i'm certain of that.

he would be pretty stupid if he did anyway.



When he took his position he said 100 % the majors wont be touched :gag:

so anything can happen :?

yes lying about the UK Was a bad move on his part

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

Wild wrote:
GJ wrote:
Wild wrote:
Bourne wrote:No way he'll touch the Worlds format, i'm certain of that.

he would be pretty stupid if he did anyway.



When he took his position he said 100 % the majors wont be touched :gag:

so anything can happen :?

yes lying about the UK Was a bad move on his part



IF hes as smart as some say like gallant his spokesman says then barry would have a long term plan so would have had some idea that reducing uk was a possibility but no he said majors wont be touched :?

So its hard to trust what he says is from now on <doh>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Witz78

PTC points are fine as they are

if they were spread out better over the full season which was better structured with regular main rankers then the importance of them wouldnt seem as inflated as it does at the moment as there in one large block at the start of the season when theres little else being played.

Ultimately the PTCs (+ final) are worth a total of 27,000 points out of a season worth 81,000 points max so this equates to 33% or a third of the seasons points being from the PTCs which isnt that much given they are the backbone of the tour.

I would however like to see the following tariffs for the main rankers

Welsh raised to 6,000 from 5,000
Germany raised to 6,000 from 5,000
Shanghai reduced to 6,000 from 7,000
World Open to remain at 7,000
China Open to remain at 7,000
UK Champs to increase to 10,000 from 8,000
World Champs to increase to 13,000 from 10,000

with the respective points for rounds reached etc pro-rata'd accordingly

Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

I said months ago about the possibility of Hearn reducing either/or The UK or The WC formats and was shot down on here with the comment that he was an honourable man and would stick by his word not to touch the majors.

I dont like the current climate of short is good, it's bad for the Sport as a whole.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby vodkadiet

snooky147 wrote:I said months ago about the possibility of Hearn reducing either/or The UK or The WC formats and was shot down on here with the comment that he was an honourable man and would stick by his word not to touch the majors.

I dont like the current climate of short is good, it's bad for the Sport as a whole.


Hearn just wants to make a quick buck. He wants to prostitute the sport for the sake of the A.D.D. society by creating events that I don't even regard as snooker.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby randam05

This vodka guy is starting to annoy me.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby randam05

Witz78 wrote:
randam05 wrote:This vodka guy is starting to annoy me.


<doh>


Okay he has annoyed me for a while now <laugh>

I dont know how rude I can be towards him so ill shutup.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby GJ

randam05 wrote:
Witz78 wrote:
randam05 wrote:This vodka guy is starting to annoy me.


<doh>


Okay he has annoyed me for a while now <laugh>

I dont know how rude I can be towards him so ill shutup.



just say what you want he is a softy really <ok>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby vodkadiet

randam05 wrote:This vodka guy is starting to annoy me.


Barry Hearn not only started to annoy me, but is continuing to annoy me, and will continue to annoy until he departs.

Lest we forget that there was a time when Hearn wanted to destroy World Snooker by setting up a rival tour, and also stated in no uncertain terms that he wanted no snooker on The BBC, and wanted to sell it all out to Sky Sports.

The man is all about money. As I said before, 'richest man in the graveyard'.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Roland

Hearn needs to appease people like vodka by increasing formats in some events to counter the reduction in others. I have nothing against the PTCs, I think the best of 7s is fine for sprint events and with enough of them the cream rise to the surface. But the German Masters could be expanded and the China Open could be expanded as well to best of 17. That's the sort of thing that will get those sections of fans not behind him, behind him.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:Hearn needs to appease people like vodka by increasing formats in some events to counter the reduction in others. I have nothing against the PTCs, I think the best of 7s is fine for sprint events and with enough of them the cream rise to the surface. But the German Masters could be expanded and the China Open could be expanded as well to best of 17. That's the sort of thing that will get those sections of fans not behind him, behind him.

great post <ok>

Re: PTCs reward

Postby mishcka

Sonny wrote:Hearn needs to appease people like vodka by increasing formats in some events to counter the reduction in others. I have nothing against the PTCs, I think the best of 7s is fine for sprint events and with enough of them the cream rise to the surface. But the German Masters could be expanded and the China Open could be expanded as well to best of 17. That's the sort of thing that will get those sections of fans not behind him, behind him.


:hatoff:
All Hearn needs to do is exactly what you've said! I like the idea of expanding the German Masters to best of 17 (would best of 19 be pushing it too far?).

Re: PTCs reward

Postby vodkadiet

Sonny wrote:Hearn needs to appease people like vodka by increasing formats in some events to counter the reduction in others. I have nothing against the PTCs, I think the best of 7s is fine for sprint events and with enough of them the cream rise to the surface. But the German Masters could be expanded and the China Open could be expanded as well to best of 17. That's the sort of thing that will get those sections of fans not behind him, behind him.


I don't want Berlin or China to be best of 17, I want The UK best of 17. The UK is going to lose its status of being a big event if it is reduced to best of 11s.

Hearn just wants endless short format, shot clock events, that will be instantly forgotten, the moment the winner has received the trophy.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

vodkadiet wrote:
Sonny wrote:Hearn needs to appease people like vodka by increasing formats in some events to counter the reduction in others. I have nothing against the PTCs, I think the best of 7s is fine for sprint events and with enough of them the cream rise to the surface. But the German Masters could be expanded and the China Open could be expanded as well to best of 17. That's the sort of thing that will get those sections of fans not behind him, behind him.


I don't want Berlin or China to be best of 17, I want The UK best of 17. The UK is going to lose its status of being a big event if it is reduced to best of 11s.

Hearn just wants endless short format, shot clock events, that will be instantly forgotten, the moment the winner has received the trophy.

i like the PTC it has it uses but what you say makes a lot of sense you want the PTC as a Stepping stone for real Majors and the UK was that.... it lost it status when they reduced the final to some extent and like tubber being banging on for months its lost it way as a event for years reducing it even more wont help.. is it second to the World or just the Pack now ?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby gallantrabbit

Silly boy Vodka. If Hearn was looking at a rival tour then it was only cos the main one was so poorly run.
Do yoiu really think Hearn needs the money and the hassle?? Silly boy.
Yeah yeah so the UK was reduced which is a shame. But have you not noticed the scrap going on for tv minutes. TV dictates and there are times when even well connected Hearn can do nothing.
Thanks to BH we can watch snooker every week. :bowdown:

Re: PTCs reward

Postby snooky147

Sadly, I do not think we will ever see the likes of the UK raised in terms of frames unless you get a sponsor that insists on it. Hearn has started the short format and I think there will only be pressure to further reduce, which must be resisted by players and fans.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

snooky147 wrote:Sadly, I do not think we will ever see the likes of the UK raised in terms of frames unless you get a sponsor that insists on it. Hearn has started the short format and I think there will only be pressure to further reduce, which must be resisted by players and fans.

its just not the answer suerly to hell hes not that thick :?

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Monique

http://snookerscene.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... adise.html?
TROUBLE IN PARADISE
Things have changed markedly in the last year and a bit, most would say for the better.

More tournaments, global expansion and a feeling that the game is on the up have created a mood of optimism.

But you don’t have to look too far beneath the surface to find players unhappy with various aspects of their professional lives.

In short: the Barry Hearn honeymoon appears to be over.

I was in Gloucester last week for PTC7 where I spoke to a number of players, some off the record and some, like Stephen Maguire, in an interview.

Maguire, to his credit, has always spoken his mind, as he did again when I asked him for his views on the PTCs.

“I don’t enjoy them,” he said. “You play in a cubicle with no audience and no atmosphere. We play for years to try and get out of the cubicles and now we’re back in them. It’s hard to play well in that set up but you have to keep coming for the points.

“I’ve lost all respect for the ranking system. All anyone is looking at is the cut-off points and if I won’t drop down then I won’t play in a PTC.

“I feel like a bit of a prostitute, turning up for these events because I have to. Some of us got stick [from Hearn] for not entering tournaments because we wanted more time with our families. It’s up to me if I choose not to enter an event. If you don’t want to play you shouldn’t be forced into it.

“If you travel anywhere now you’re out of pocket unless you do really well.”

So what do we make of this?

A spoilt sportsman who doesn’t know how lucky he is or the heartfelt concerns of someone who feels he isn’t being treated in a manner worthy of his status?

As usual, the answer lies somewhere in between the two.

First of all, it’s important to point out that Maguire isn’t the only player who feels this way. Other top stars share his view and even some reasonable, sensible players lower down the ranking list are unhappy that they are shedding out large amounts of money with little prospect of serious return.

One described the European PTCs as “buying ranking points.” Most likely players will lose money on a trip to, say, Warsaw but can’t afford to miss out because of the points the events carry.

I think Maguire makes a good point about the cubicle set up. He’s right that players work hard to become free of that environment and to end up back there is a comedown.

Gloucester is a much, much better environment to play than Sheffield but still does not have the atmosphere of a big TV tournament.

But when Maguire talks about being ‘forced’ to play he is actually just articulating what many people feel about their jobs.

Most of you reading this now will know the feeling of waking up in the morning and really, really not wanting to go to work. But you do because you have to put food on the table. In that sense you don’t have a choice.

And snooker players, as in any other profession, will sit round with their colleagues complaining about having to do it. Go to any workplace and this is what you will find.

In fact, top snooker players who earn good money do have a choice, but not playing could be to the detriment of their ranking position, which is the trap Maguire is talking about.

A teacher cannot pick and choose what days they work. They can’t decide not to teach a particular class because they feel it’s beneath them.

The difference, though, is that teachers are not required to go to countries like China at their own expense to work.

The globalisation of snooker is a good thing for the sport and its future but it has left many players out of pocket with mounting expenses.

While it may be true to say they all have the same chance to win the top prize, it is equally true to say they are not all going to win it.

Most will bow out early and not even break even at the European PTCs, all of which increases the pressure of when they are actually playing. PTC11, due to be staged in Europe, is apparently to be held in the Badminton Hall in Sheffield, which will at least reduce expenses for British based players (i.e. the vast majority).

All that said, there is a great deal of money to be made playing snooker and when top players end up skint it is usually because of bad choices they have made, either spending money recklessly or putting their faith in shysters determined to rip them off.

This is why players desperately need independent financial guidance, ideally initiated through a structure at the WPBSA.

Maguire is not a lone voice but by no means everyone agrees with him. One lower ranked player told me that “the top players have been overpaid for years and shouldn’t be complaining.”

Another expressed astonishment that players were carping only two years after they were playing in just six or seven tournaments a year.

Shaun Murphy has said that he plays in just about everything because he wants to “create a store of memories” he can pass on to his children and grandchildren, and that he won’t do that sat at home.

Many other players are enjoying the opportunity the PTC affords and relishing the busy season in progress.

One of the problems is that many top players had it sweet when tobacco firms pumped millions into the game. For instance, Mark Williams won £270,000 – snooker’s biggest ever first prize – for becoming world champion in 2003. After local tax of 46% was withdrawn from his runners-up prize at the Australian Open he says he was left with roughly £9,000, out of which he had to pay his expenses.

It’s fair to say he wasn’t impressed and it’s easy to see why. Some players are openly saying they won’t be going to Australia next year.

And expenses are going to mount. After Christmas, running into the World Championship, there is a succession of tournaments in foreign climes.

This is all to the good in my opinion but it is vital that the structure of the tournament calendar is looked at, otherwise players will – understandably – not be playing in certain events.

At the back end of February the players are expected to go to China for the World Open, possibly on to India for a new tournament, then back to Europe for the PTC grand finals, then back out to China and then back to Britain for the World Championship. All this in the space of five or six weeks.

Other sports have, for instance, an ‘Asian swing’ so that they play a succession of events in a particular region.

This would surely be better in snooker, although of course Hearn and his team is having to largely start over again after years in which the sport drifted aimlessly.

His attitude is to get as many tournaments on as possible and, in fairness, this is what the players have asked him to do.

And players, like many other people, are motivated by financial gain. Personally I see nothing wrong with this.

But they need to be honest about it. Some of the players who skipped the Poland PTC didn’t do so to spend more time with their families: they were in China playing in an unsanctioned exhibition event.

Flying around the world is less arduous when you are being well paid for it.

Only hardcore snooker fans, in the minority, involve themselves in every aspect of tour structure and the minutiae of the circuit. Most just enjoy watching the game and are happy with the increased amount of tournaments and the opportunity to see more players.

However, some of the players who vociferously supported Hearn’s coronation are now finding that the game has become a runaway train they are finding hard to keep up with.

There is much to adjust to and so complaints are inevitable and understandable, but I think everybody has to realise that snooker is not premier league football or golf or tennis. Those sports attract vast amounts of sponsorship revenue. Snooker, which has always suffered from cultural snobbery, does not. It depends mainly on betting firms, most of whom do not pay fortunes. With the world economy how it is, sponsorship is going to be harder and harder to obtain.

Therefore not every new event is going to be like the World Championship. Major tournaments are not going to fall from the sky, replete with huge prize funds.

For this to change the sport has to be built up again, and the players are key to this. Things are not perfect – and the schedule is going to create more problems – but what is the answer? To go back to how it was before? Does anyone really want that?

Players said they wanted more tournaments. They have them. They aren’t all ideal by any means and they don’t all make financial sense, but one thing Hearn can’t be criticised for is doing what he was asked: to get events on.

Maybe the moral of the story is this: be careful what you wish for.

Re: PTCs reward

Postby Wildey

:gag: :gag: :gag: :gag: :gag: :gag: