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Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Wildey

Witz78 wrote:
Wild WC wrote:
Witz78 wrote:
Casey wrote:All the talk about Hendo having it easy in his day makes me laugh – Ronnie has beaten Carter in his last two finals.
Circumstances robbed us of a better tournament – Selby being injured and Trump getting food poisoning. Funny enough that’s two players that can stick it to Ronnie.


in Hendrys day you got a bye to the quarters facing total nobodies

exibit A Witz and BS <ok>


thatll be the same BS that Hendry himself even came out and said then rofl

since when have anyone taken any notice of BBC Pundits they are being payed to big up the current sport.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Roland

Witz78 wrote:
Sonny wrote:OK 3 years is plucked from thin air but you get me, call them peak years. Arguably Hendry's era ends in 2002 because that was his last proper tilt at a world title but his best years were definitely before he lost that aura around him which was ended by Williams, O'Sullivan and Higgins who were young and not afraid of him as the players prior to that time. Maybe it was Doherty who kick started it by proving Hendry could be beaten in a World final.


yeh id say the Doherty win was the beginning of the end for Hendry, it was just so hard to believe at the time that that had happened.

the 9-0 Campbell win, the Williams blackball were further catalysts. Fair play to Hendo for winning a 7th worlds though he was only just 30 then so he was far from being over the hill in snooker terms even if his aura had slightly dropped.

It has to go down as one of snookers great mysteries how Hendry only won ONE major after the age of 27. The way he goes from complete dominance to almost none at all is reminiscent of Ballesteros rapid decline in the late 80s actually


When you consider some of the one hit wonders who have won in that time it is very strange that he never won another major after that 1999 win I agree. But that's what happened. Sure he reached plenty of finals and semi-finals after that which over the period effectively means you're one of the best 4 players around so there's that to take into account as well I suppose.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Snooker Overdrive

The GOAT debate was inevitable after Ronnie won it this year just like it was last year.

Unfortunately I'm probably one of the few who can't have a say in this because I didn't watch snooker until 2006.

However I rate consistency very highly. And two snooker legends disappointed in that regard: Williams and Hendry
Higgins won his first title in 1998 and his latest in 2011, 13 years between them. That's an amazing achievement.

Dominance is great but to win constantly over a longer period of time proves that the player can cope with becoming older, having different opponents but still always come out on top whatever the circumstances are.
Last edited by Snooker Overdrive on 08 May 2012, edited 1 time in total.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Roland

That's true, it's a factor but take the Hendry case to the extreme. Just say you have a journeyman who is struggling to make a living, ranked around 60 in the world and all of sudden one season he can't miss and ends up getting a century break in every frame and wins every tournament on the calendar without conceding a frame, then as sure as night is day he loses that form and falls back to the ranking he was before. Does that make him the GOAT? Some would argue yes.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Witz78

Wild WC wrote:
Witz78 wrote:
Wild WC wrote:
Witz78 wrote:
Casey wrote:All the talk about Hendo having it easy in his day makes me laugh – Ronnie has beaten Carter in his last two finals.
Circumstances robbed us of a better tournament – Selby being injured and Trump getting food poisoning. Funny enough that’s two players that can stick it to Ronnie.


in Hendrys day you got a bye to the quarters facing total nobodies

exibit A Witz and BS <ok>


thatll be the same BS that Hendry himself even came out and said then rofl

since when have anyone taken any notice of BBC Pundits they are being payed to big up the current sport.


he said it a good 5 years ago numbnuts :irk:

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Sonny wrote:That's true, it's a factor but take the Hendry case to the extreme. Just say you have a journeyman who is struggling to make a living, ranked around 60 in the world and all of sudden one season he can't miss and ends up getting a century break in every frame and wins every tournament on the calendar without conceding a frame, then as sure as night is day he loses that form and falls back to the ranking he was before. Does that make him the GOAT? Some would argue yes.


Very interesting post Sonny.

I can't give you a final assessment on this issue because Hendry obviously dominated nearly a decade and that's a long time but if Higgins and Ronnie can continue to win titles in this decade as well, they will have a very strong case to be regarded as the GOAT.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby jojo

davis was one ball away from winning another world title in 1985 and johnson beat him in 86 that was huge shock much like steve james against hendry

anyway people will always have their opinion no matter what but as long as these players are in the debate theyll be happy because the rest as tiger woods and hendry been saying is just opinions

that is all i have to say on the matter

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Roland

When all is said and done, Higgins and Ronnie have already done enough to be considered in the debate and that's all you can ask. The rest is a case of GOAT debates and opinions which trust me will go on and on and on and on ad nauseum

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Roland

Steve James against Hendry wasn't the shock everyone makes out. Steve James was class and he was dangerous and he was at his best in the early 90s. He was my second favourite player behind Jimmy for a quite a while back then.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby vodkadiet

The ironic thing with the Hendry is, that if he had retired on winning The World Championship in 1999 then his legacy would have been unquestionable.

It is kind of like the Federer vs Nadal factor. If Federer had been worse on clay than he was and kept losing in the French Open early rounds he wouldn't have such a distorted head to head record with Nadal. By being so good on clay he perhaps hurt his legacy in the eyes of some, quite wrongly I would add.

Should Hendry's legacy be tarnished just because he continued playing after breaking The Crucible record?

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby SnookerFan

Fred Done, Boss of Betfred, said before the tournament started that he would donate £200 for every century made, to be topped up to £25,000 if there were 75 centuries. In the end there were only 71 tons, but Fred has decided to top up the donation to £25,000 anyway.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby freakmoomin

Witz78 wrote:yeh id say the Doherty win was the beginning of the end for Hendry, it was just so hard to believe at the time that that had happened.

the 9-0 Campbell win, the Williams blackball were further catalysts. Fair play to Hendo for winning a 7th worlds though he was only just 30 then so he was far from being over the hill in snooker terms even if his aura had slightly dropped.



For me it was the williams black ball!

I honestly couldnt believe it, i still cant! Not that it was an easy pot.....far from it.....but it was Hendry......He was the best pressure potter the game has ever seen and he missed it!


Even for me (the biggest Hendry fan i know of) i seen he was human after all!

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Sickpotter

vodkadiet wrote:The ironic thing with the Hendry is, that if he had retired on winning The World Championship in 1999 then his legacy would have been unquestionable.

It is kind of like the Federer vs Nadal factor. If Federer had been worse on clay than he was and kept losing in the French Open early rounds he wouldn't have such a distorted head to head record with Nadal. By being so good on clay he perhaps hurt his legacy in the eyes of some, quite wrongly I would add.

Should Hendry's legacy be tarnished just because he continued playing after breaking The Crucible record?


Fred Davis, Joe Davis, etc. all played past their best as well but none of them are remembered for their declining years, their records speak for themselves and are what people talk about.

Why should it be any different for Hendry? :shrug:

I'd expect there will be some for whom that transitional period of Hendry's decline sticks with them but it will fade.

IMO Hendry did not tarnish his rep by keeping on :spot on:

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Sickpotter

jojo wrote:to be honest i never get involved in the weak era strong era debate but sometimes say things to wind wild up sticking a needle up his bottom but hendry himself has said a few times the reason why he almost had a bye into the quarters and semi finals was because the opposition werent as strong as today especially in terms of depth

those are his words he never said he get a bye into the quarter final semi finals because of his confidence but because of lack of strong opposition


They may have been his words but why does everyone insist it's fact and not just a statement based on the memory of how he felt?

1- When you're playing your best and full of confidence you have no strong opposition and thus it became a "bye" for early rounds.
2- You want to promote the game, suggesting the standard is better and better is a way to do this
3- Years past your best you don't walk up and start talking about how amazing you were.
4- Flat out stating you've lost your confidence builds up the confidence of all future opponents.
5- Suggesting stronger opposition is a psychological trick to allow a player to salvage their confidence and avoid having to honestly admit they're past their best.

In the end it's just opinion, everyone will have their own, none based in fact. All are interpretations of a remark made by a player on the decline. IMO you need to factor in the state of Hendry's game when trying to interpret his comments.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Snooker Overdrive

Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins won 5 out of the last 6 World titles.

But what happened to Mark Williams? What happened to the man who won EVERY single BBC title in 2002/2003?

Why did he fall short after he first reached the 2 World Titles mark? Why couldn't he keep up the pace? Why did his old foes surpass him so easily?

Can Williams still be mentioned in the same breath with the likes of Higgins or Ronnie?

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Wildey

Sonny wrote:Steve James against Hendry wasn't the shock everyone makes out. Steve James was class and he was dangerous and he was at his best in the early 90s. He was my second favourite player behind Jimmy for a quite a while back then.

yup Steve James was class but because he hardly won anything people tend to think he was a nobody seriously Steve James played in the Davis / Hendry years im convinced if he was playing in the last few years he would have picked up a few events along the way.

in the GOAT Debate there is no ifs Buts or Maybe the way Hendry played to get his titles has never been matched Even Ronnie has to resort to a degree of safety to reach his goal Stephen just Bulldozed his way to Tournaments.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Muppet147

Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:Steve James against Hendry wasn't the shock everyone makes out. Steve James was class and he was dangerous and he was at his best in the early 90s. He was my second favourite player behind Jimmy for a quite a while back then.

yup Steve James was class but because he hardly won anything people tend to think he was a nobody seriously Steve James played in the Davis / Hendry years im convinced if he was playing in the last few years he would have picked up a few events along the way.

in the GOAT Debate there is no ifs Buts or Maybe the way Hendry played to get his titles has never been matched Even Ronnie has to resort to a degree of safety to reach his goal Stephen just Bulldozed his way to Tournaments.


If Hendry played like that today, he wouldn't win much. Look at Judd Trump, who is obviously more talented than Hendry but wins very few tournaments playing a similarly attacking game. :-)

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Wildey

Sickpotter wrote:
jojo wrote:to be honest i never get involved in the weak era strong era debate but sometimes say things to wind wild up sticking a needle up his bottom but hendry himself has said a few times the reason why he almost had a bye into the quarters and semi finals was because the opposition werent as strong as today especially in terms of depth

those are his words he never said he get a bye into the quarter final semi finals because of his confidence but because of lack of strong opposition


They may have been his words but why does everyone insist it's fact and not just a statement based on the memory of how he felt?

1- When you're playing your best and full of confidence you have no strong opposition and thus it became a "bye" for early rounds.
2- You want to promote the game, suggesting the standard is better and better is a way to do this
3- Years past your best you don't walk up and start talking about how amazing you were.
4- Flat out stating you've lost your confidence builds up the confidence of all future opponents.
5- Suggesting stronger opposition is a psychological trick to allow a player to salvage their confidence and avoid having to honestly admit they're past their best.

In the end it's just opinion, everyone will have their own, none based in fact. All are interpretations of a remark made by a player on the decline. IMO you need to factor in the state of Hendry's game when trying to interpret his comments.

the way hendry played back then he would have made this years qualifiers look extreamly poor its just subjective some seem to think the likes of Gary Wilkinson and Alain Robidoux was rubbish but thats because they dont understand the game to the degree of how difficult they made it for flair or faster players to play.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Wildey

Muppet147 wrote:
Wild WC wrote:
Sonny wrote:Steve James against Hendry wasn't the shock everyone makes out. Steve James was class and he was dangerous and he was at his best in the early 90s. He was my second favourite player behind Jimmy for a quite a while back then.

yup Steve James was class but because he hardly won anything people tend to think he was a nobody seriously Steve James played in the Davis / Hendry years im convinced if he was playing in the last few years he would have picked up a few events along the way.

in the GOAT Debate there is no ifs Buts or Maybe the way Hendry played to get his titles has never been matched Even Ronnie has to resort to a degree of safety to reach his goal Stephen just Bulldozed his way to Tournaments.


If Hendry played like that today, he wouldn't win much. Look at Judd Trump, who is obviously more talented than Hendry but wins very few tournaments playing a similarly attacking game. :-)

with respect to judd but Hendry played to a far more consistant level and more devastating in the balls that he wouldnt miss some of the balls judd does.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby freakmoomin

Muppet147 wrote:If Hendry played like that today, he wouldn't win much. Look at Judd Trump, who is obviously more talented than Hendry but wins very few tournaments playing a similarly attacking game. :-)


hahahahahahahaha

im sure theres some baiting going on here......but Judd cant even be mentioned in the same sentence as hendry in this regard!

judd has played about 4 frames of attacking snooker to the standard that hendry has played around 500!

i like judd as a player.....but he has a LONG way to go.

Re: World Championship (Mon 7th of May) Final Discussion !

Postby Witz78

Snooker Overdrive wrote:Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins won 5 out of the last 6 World titles.

But what happened to Mark Williams? What happened to the man who won EVERY single BBC title in 2002/2003?

Why did he fall short after he first reached the 2 World Titles mark? Why couldn't he keep up the pace? Why did his old foes surpass him so easily?

Can Williams still be mentioned in the same breath with the likes of Higgins or Ronnie?


Williams is miles down the GOAT debate compared to Higgins and Ronnie