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Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby TheRocket

One of the most incredible stats given how much success Selby has had in his career as an All-Time Great. He's virtually done absolutely nothing in the ITV events. Not even a single final. His best result has been two semifinals (2013 Champion of Champions / 2018 World Grand Prix).

On 7 occasions (out of 15) he already lost in the 1st round. Remember these are not unimportant events. The most in-form players are participating.

Champion of Champions (since 2013): Semi Final, Quarter Final, Last 16, Quarter Final, Quarter Final, Last 16
(16 man field)

World Grand Prix (since 2015): Last 16, Last 32, Last 32, Semi Final, Quarter Final
(32 man field)

Players Championship (since 2016): Withdrew, Quarter Final, Last 16, Last 16
(16 man field)

Tour Championship (since 2019): Quarter Final
(8 man field)

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby eraserhead

I feel like he's struggling in the short format events where you have to play inform players from the start. His Masters results haven't been great the last few years either. Foulds always brings up how he's doing much better in China compared to events in the UK.

Lately he seems stronger when he can get through some tight matches in the 128 events and grow stronger as the tournament goes on.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Ash147

It's because he's always going to be facing an in-form player in these events, and not some numpty. Someone like Ronnie thrives in these short format events where he plays the best of the best.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Wildey

Playing a top players isnt a problem he has thrived against the best.


its just one of thoes things no big deal. eventually he will win one.


His form in the last 2 seasons been poor to say the least but you cant have a succesfull career without having blips.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby sas6789

Ash147 wrote:It's because he's always going to be facing an in-form player in these events, and not some numpty. Someone like Ronnie thrives in these short format events where he plays the best of the best.

You don't win 3 worlds and 3 masters unless you can beat the best Ash.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Ash147

sas6789 wrote:
Ash147 wrote:It's because he's always going to be facing an in-form player in these events, and not some numpty. Someone like Ronnie thrives in these short format events where he plays the best of the best.

You don't win 3 worlds and 3 masters unless you can beat the best Ash.


You aren't always guaranteed a difficult match at the Worlds though, especially in the early rounds. Just look at 2014 and 2016, Selby almost lost both of his first round matches to low quality opposition. If he'd been up against a top player in those matches, then he'd have likely been trounced. Selby is usually at his most vulnerable early on in tournaments, and if he's not playing well, combined with a difficult opposition, then more often than not he'll be heading out. At the business end of the tournament he's a different prospect though.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Wildey

Ash147 wrote:
sas6789 wrote:
Ash147 wrote:It's because he's always going to be facing an in-form player in these events, and not some numpty. Someone like Ronnie thrives in these short format events where he plays the best of the best.

You don't win 3 worlds and 3 masters unless you can beat the best Ash.


You aren't always guaranteed a difficult match at the Worlds though, especially in the early rounds. Just look at 2014 and 2016, Selby almost lost both of his first round matches to low quality opposition. If he'd been up against a top player in those matches, then he'd have likely been trounced. Selby is usually at his most vulnerable early on in tournaments, and if he's not playing well, combined with a difficult opposition, then more often than not he'll be heading out. At the business end of the tournament he's a different prospect though.

Mate Michael White was not low quality oposition in 2014 he was a top 32 player heres me thinking the standards today is high right down the rankings and Ash calls a top 32 player low quality :shrug: :chin:

and 2016 Milkins was ranked 21

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Ash147

Wildey wrote:
Ash147 wrote:
sas6789 wrote:
Ash147 wrote:It's because he's always going to be facing an in-form player in these events, and not some numpty. Someone like Ronnie thrives in these short format events where he plays the best of the best.

You don't win 3 worlds and 3 masters unless you can beat the best Ash.


You aren't always guaranteed a difficult match at the Worlds though, especially in the early rounds. Just look at 2014 and 2016, Selby almost lost both of his first round matches to low quality opposition. If he'd been up against a top player in those matches, then he'd have likely been trounced. Selby is usually at his most vulnerable early on in tournaments, and if he's not playing well, combined with a difficult opposition, then more often than not he'll be heading out. At the business end of the tournament he's a different prospect though.

Mate Michael White was not low quality oposition in 2014 he was a top 32 player heres me thinking the standards today is high right down the rankings and Ash calls a top 32 player low quality :shrug: :chin:

and 2016 Milkins was ranked 21


Michael White and Robert Milkins are decent players, but the reality is they are just fodder for the real quality players. Selby was at his peak from 2014-2017, and should have been dispatching that sort of opposition fairly comfortably.

Just another note on Selby's form at the business end of tournaments. Since winning the World Championship in 2014, he's won 16 out of the 17 finals that he's appeared in. To win 16 titles in 5 years is impressive in itself, but to only lose once in a final is crazy. In the same period Ronnie has played in 25 finals, winning 15 and losing 10.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Wildey

Why? should he be dispatching thoes players comfterbly thats the equivelant as to say standard of play down the rankings is marmite

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby D4P

In general, Mark Selby gets his best results in the longer-format events, where his relatively inferior snooker skills can be offset by his superior temperament.

His success in snooker has been driven more by his patience and "never say die" attitude than by his actual snooker-playing ability, and the more frames required to win a match, the more his strengths have a chance to help him.

With the exception of the new Tour Championship, the ITV events have all been short-format events that are better-suited to players like Ronnie who struggle to stay focused and patient in the longer matches...

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Wildey

D4P wrote:In general, Mark Selby gets his best results in the longer-format events, where his relatively inferior snooker skills can be offset by his superior temperament.

His success in snooker has been driven more by his patience and "never say die" attitude than by his actual snooker-playing ability, and the more frames required to win a match, the more his strengths have a chance to help him.

With the exception of the new Tour Championship, the ITV events have all been short-format events that are better-suited to players like Ronnie who struggle to stay focused and patient in the longer matches...

Seriously thats bullocks yea he has a never say die atitude but to dismiss his ability like that is very nieve to say the least.


The guy has recorded almost 600 centuries and 6th of all time you dont make that amount without a hell of a lot of talent he has infact made 100 more tons than 8th place man Shaun Murphy.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby D4P

Selby's "Frames per century" rate is 7th best all-time, and also 7th best among current players. He trails Ronnie, Trump, N. Robertson, Ding, Allen, and Fu.

Which emphasizes my point: I'm pretty sure just about everyone considers Selby (and his career record) to be 2nd best among those players only to Ronnie, and yet his century rate is only 7th best.

The reason he has won so many big events (and so many long-format big events) and the reason he hasn't done as well in short-format events (including the ITV events, which is the topic of this thread) is that his temperament is a bigger strength for him than his snooker ability, and that strength becomes more of an advantage as the length of the match increases.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Johnny Bravo

D4P wrote:Selby's "Frames per century" rate is 7th best all-time, and also 7th best among current players. He trails Ronnie, Trump, N. Robertson, Ding, Allen, and Fu.

Which emphasizes my point: I'm pretty sure just about everyone considers Selby (and his career record) to be 2nd best among those players only to Ronnie, and yet his century rate is only 7th best.

The reason he has won so many big events (and so many long-format big events) and the reason he hasn't done as well in short-format events (including the ITV events, which is the topic of this thread) is that his temperament is a bigger strength for him than his snooker ability, and that strength becomes more of an advantage as the length of the match increases.


Brilliant post D4P, that's a very good explanation. :hatoff:

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Andre147

D4P wrote:Selby's "Frames per century" rate is 7th best all-time, and also 7th best among current players. He trails Ronnie, Trump, N. Robertson, Ding, Allen, and Fu.

Which emphasizes my point: I'm pretty sure just about everyone considers Selby (and his career record) to be 2nd best among those players only to Ronnie, and yet his century rate is only 7th best.

The reason he has won so many big events (and so many long-format big events) and the reason he hasn't done as well in short-format events (including the ITV events, which is the topic of this thread) is that his temperament is a bigger strength for him than his snooker ability, and that strength becomes more of an advantage as the length of the match increases.


Yes that's well described.

I think, in short, Selby needs more time to adapt, and in shorter formats that can cost him.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby D4P

Badsnookerplayer wrote:I absolutely don't think he has been second best to Ronnie over the past decade.

Certainly over 2018 that is fair to say but to judge a player only on century per frame seems somewhat simplistic.


1. Selby's career record is 2nd best to Ronnie's career record, within the set of 7 players listed above.

2. The issue of Selby's century-making was raised by someone else as evidence of his snooker abilities.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Yeah - fair enough in career records. That is an accurate statement.

Ronnie's career has been much longer than Selby's of course and I don't think Ronnie has been dominant over Selby's peak years. He has been phenomenally successful of course but I think it is easy to see Selby's achievements through his past two seasons. Prior to that he was giving Ronnie (and many others) a rough time.

Back on topic, I don't think there is a particular reason why Selby has done poorly in the ITV events. Just one of those things.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Wildey

OK he's 7th centuries per frames how does that make him any less talented a player than 6 th overall yea there has been better overall players however the gap is minimal seriously anyone who thinks Selby's game at his best can't compete in break building with anyone needs their eyes tested and I suggest should never drive a car just too dangerous.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby SnookerFan

Badsnookerplayer wrote:I absolutely don't think he has been second best to Ronnie over the past decade.

Certainly over 2018 that is fair to say but to judge a player only on century per frame seems somewhat simplistic.


Who would you say was second best over the last decade?

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby SnookerFan

Wildey wrote:OK he's 7th centuries per frames how does that make him any less talented a player than 6 th overall yea there has been better overall players however the gap is minimal seriously anyone who thinks Selby's game at his best can't compete in break building with anyone needs their eyes tested and I suggest should never drive a car just too dangerous.


Do you drive, Wild?

I can imagine somebody cutting you up, you'd deliberately crash into them. And probably rip out their passenger seat to attack them with it.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Badsnookerplayer

SnookerFan wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:I absolutely don't think he has been second best to Ronnie over the past decade.

Certainly over 2018 that is fair to say but to judge a player only on century per frame seems somewhat simplistic.


Who would you say was second best over the last decade?


People like putting things in order.

I am just saying it is not as simple as saying "Oh he is best then him then him....". There are different metrics by which you could state ROS or Selby have been the top player over the last decade.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Wildey

My gripe is people think all Selby has is his never say die attitude and will to win thats simply not true yea he has that but theres so much more to his game. hes a pretty quick breakbuilder he can easily avarage 19 or 20 seconds in breakbuilding but then when it comes to safety he really thinks about how to put the other guy in maximum trouble and on that his brain doesent work as quick as Ronnie's.


Safety play is an art any fool can play safe by not leaving a ball on Selby has one of the most aggresive safety game ive ever seen.


All the negativity about his game stems from a coment Ronnie did calling him the torturer but Ronnie has moved on since being a pundit he has realised the brilliance and cleverness of the Selby game however some uneducated fans hasent.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Iranu

Wildey wrote:My gripe is people think all Selby has is his never say die attitude and will to win thats simply not true yea he has that but theres so much more to his game. hes a pretty quick breakbuilder he can easily avarage 19 or 20 seconds in breakbuilding but then when it comes to safety he really thinks about how to put the other guy in maximum trouble and on that his brain doesent work as quick as Ronnie's.


Safety play is an art any fool can play safe by not leaving a ball on Selby has one of the most aggresive safety game ive ever seen.


All the negativity about his game stems from a coment Ronnie did calling him the torturer but Ronnie has moved on since being a pundit he has realised the brilliance and cleverness of the Selby game however some uneducated fans hasent.

I agree with pretty much all of this.

Selby’s a pretty fluid breakbuilder. I think his cue action with the slow feathering makes people think he’s slower than he is amongst the balls as well.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby SnookerFan

I've seen Selby play fast attacking snooker.

Just because he doesn't always play like that, or some might say often play like that, doesn't mean he can't.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Wildey

in qualifying for the interational championship he made

134
124
84
74
72
61
59

in beating Sam Baird 6-1 avaraging 20 seconds a shot.

Selby adapts his game acordingly to how he feels i dont think hes a natrual confident player and sometimes he can get bogged down depending on his frame of mind but where as Ding Would lose without putting much of a fight feeling like that Selby fights and fights hard.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby Ash147

Ronnie since 2009/10 Season: 2 Worlds, 3 UKs, 3 Masters, 15 Ranking titles, 3 Minor Ranking titles, 9 Non-ranking titles. 444 Centuries, 6 Maximums.

Selby since 2009/10 Season: 3 Worlds, 2 UKs, 2 Masters, 14 Ranking titles, 7 Minor Ranking titles, 6 Non-ranking titles. 462 Centuries, 3 Maximums.

They are undoubtedly the two best players of the decade. No one comes close to this level of achievement over the last 10 years.

Re: Selbys poor record at the ITV events

Postby SnookerFan

Ash147 wrote:Ronnie since 2009/10 Season: 2 Worlds, 3 UKs, 3 Masters, 15 Ranking titles, 3 Minor Ranking titles, 9 Non-ranking titles. 444 Centuries, 6 Maximums.

Selby since 2009/10 Season: 3 Worlds, 2 UKs, 2 Masters, 14 Ranking titles, 7 Minor Ranking titles, 6 Non-ranking titles. 462 Centuries, 3 Maximums.

They are undoubtedly the two best players of the decade. No one comes close to this level of achievement over the last 10 years.


People just like to dump on Selby because he has a different style of play to Ronnie.