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Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Cloud Strife

SteveJJ wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:So I guess this shows that calling Selby Slowby is quite appropiate :john:


Quite the opposite. Joint 8th fastest. Closer to Un Nooh than Walker.


How is he joint 8th though when there are 44 players faster than him according to that list? Nothing against Selby, I couldn't care less if he's the fastest or slowest, I'm just wondering if I'm reading this list wrong to everybody else or maybe my maths is rubbish.

Sorry for being pedantic, but can someone explain this to me.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Dan-cat

Cloud Strife wrote:
SteveJJ wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:So I guess this shows that calling Selby Slowby is quite appropiate :john:


Quite the opposite. Joint 8th fastest. Closer to Un Nooh than Walker.


How is he joint 8th though when there are 44 players faster than him according to that list? Nothing against Selby, I couldn't care less if he's the fastest or slowest, I'm just wondering if I'm reading this list wrong to everybody else or maybe my maths is rubbish.

Sorry for being pedantic, but can someone explain this to me.


Well let’s look at like this.

There are only a few time bands:

16s
17s
18s
19s
20s
21s
22s
23s
24s
25s
Etc.

Selby falls into the 23s band. So you could argue he’s joint 8th. How they’ve decided to rank within the bands is a mystery. Arbitrary it looks like.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby SnookerFan

Andy Spark wrote:
SteveJJ wrote:Goes some way to exploding the oft quoted comment on here that Selby is particularly slow. Same average shot time as the likes of Maguire and Wilson and I can't remember the same people moaning about their slowness.

Yes, Selby isn't really a "slow player" in the normal sense, as these stats show. However, his tactical preferences, his (admittedly) brilliant safety game and his (admittedly) impressive ability to hold 100% concentration for very long periods of relatively uninspiring snooker often impact on frame duration.


I guess when people describe him as "slow" or "slowby" this is more what they refer to. Steve Davis would be in the same boat.


I always thought. He's tactical, more than negative.

He's not always my favourite player to watch. He's not always exciting. But I never find him negative.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Dan-cat

Dan-cat wrote:
Cloud Strife wrote:
SteveJJ wrote:
Johnny Bravo wrote:So I guess this shows that calling Selby Slowby is quite appropiate :john:


Quite the opposite. Joint 8th fastest. Closer to Un Nooh than Walker.


How is he joint 8th though when there are 44 players faster than him according to that list? Nothing against Selby, I couldn't care less if he's the fastest or slowest, I'm just wondering if I'm reading this list wrong to everybody else or maybe my maths is rubbish.

Sorry for being pedantic, but can someone explain this to me.


Well let’s look at like this.

There are only a few time bands:

16s
17s
18s
19s
20s
21s
22s
23s
24s
25s
Etc.

Selby falls into the 23s band. So you could argue he’s joint 8th. How they’ve decided to rank within the bands is a mystery. Arbitrary it looks like.


I see no reference to decimal points, I think only whole seconds are being counted. So to complete this:

16s
17s
18s
19s
20s
21s
22s
23s
24s
25s
26s
27s
28s
29s
30s
31s
32s
33s
35s

So Selby is easily in the top half.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby SnookerFan

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Dan Cat explains it perfectly. Unless the players are ranked according to time within each second, then you cannot differentiate the players on - say - 23s.


All a bit pointless really, isn't it?

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Cloud Strife

Badsnookerplayer wrote:Dan Cat explains it perfectly. Unless the players are ranked according to time within each second, then you cannot differentiate the players on - say - 23s.


You cannot differentiate between the players on 23s, as you said correctly, but you CAN differentiate between those on 23s and those on 22s or faster. Currently there are 44 players who are 22s or faster, so to say anyone below this threshold is joint 8th fastest is incorrect, imo. Go and have a look at how a Golf leaderboard works, it's the same principle.

You can say Selby in amongst the group which has the 8th fastest average shot time, that's a better description, but he is not joint 8th fastest.

Anyway, I apologise for banging on about it. I sometimes get all OCD over small details which nobody else cares about lol.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Cloud Strife

SnookerFan wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:Dan Cat explains it perfectly. Unless the players are ranked according to time within each second, then you cannot differentiate the players on - say - 23s.


All a bit pointless really, isn't it?


Yeah, it is. My fault for boring on about it.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Dan-cat

Cloud Strife wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:Dan Cat explains it perfectly. Unless the players are ranked according to time within each second, then you cannot differentiate the players on - say - 23s.


You cannot differentiate between the players on 23s, as you said correctly, but you CAN differentiate between those on 23s and those on 22s or faster. Currently there are 44 players who are 22s or faster, so to say anyone below this threshold is joint 8th fastest is incorrect, imo. Go and have a look at how a Golf leaderboard works, it's the same principle.

You can say Selby in amongst the group which has the 8th fastest average shot time, that's a better description, but he is not joint 8th fastest.

Anyway, I apologise for banging on about it. I sometimes get all OCD over small details which nobody else cares about lol.


Haha Cloudy yes I did wonder when someone would point out that calling Selby joint 8th is incorrect in placement terms.

I think the only reason this list has been published is to speed people up...

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Badsnookerplayer

Cloud Strife wrote:
Badsnookerplayer wrote:Dan Cat explains it perfectly. Unless the players are ranked according to time within each second, then you cannot differentiate the players on - say - 23s.


You cannot differentiate between the players on 23s, as you said correctly, but you CAN differentiate between those on 23s and those on 22s or faster. Currently there are 44 players who are 22s or faster, so to say anyone below this threshold is joint 8th fastest is incorrect, imo. Go and have a look at how a Golf leaderboard works, it's the same principle.

You can say Selby in amongst the group which has the 8th fastest average shot time, that's a better description, but he is not joint 8th fastest.

Anyway, I apologise for banging on about it. I sometimes get all OCD over small details which nobody else cares about lol.

Good point there CS - I had not looked at it like that. I stand corrected

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby acesinc

Speaking strictly as a player since my ability to watch the Game is very limited, the disparity in shot times at the professional level does not seem very great. And truly, it is not. Even the "slowest" of the players, Rod the Plod, Ebdon, et al, are not generally slow potters at all. When they get in the balls, they generally are prepared and know what is going to happen next, they know which ball they will end on to continue the break, so that the stroke following tends to flow quite fluidly and quickly.

The real disparity is in decision making. It is often those times that a player is responding to a defensive move made by the opponent. This explains why as someone pointed out that the so called faster players also tend to be the better players. These are the aggressive scorers, play the safety as required but not overly bothered by it. The plodders on the other hand tend to not score so well so when faced with a defensive decision, you may need to mark them with a calendar rather than a stopwatch. As their scoring is not their strong point, plodders will overly fret about the perfect safety stroke to get them in with a chance.

Everyone is familiar with the famous Peter Ebdon 5 minute break of 12 against Ronnie. That break illustrates the point perfectly. It is a matter of confidence and the slow players tend to have lower confidence than the faster players. Peter spent most of the time trying to decide what to actually do, not dawdling over the individual stroke (though I suppose it could certainly be argued that twenty feathers on a single stroke ought be considered to be "dawdling").

I do not think this is a "stat for stats sake" as someone suggested. I think it could be very useful if the players would pay attention to learn from it (or more likely their managers or coaches since players tend to have a hard time admitting to flaws). The largest differential of shot time is from 17 seconds to 35 seconds...for all practical purposes, that is double. 35 seconds on its face does not seem an unreasonable length of time, but that is the average of all strokes. If you break it up into an hour instead of just seconds, it means that one player is at the table for 20 minutes while the other is wasting most of 40 minutes. That becomes significant. Most strokes within a break are just as fast for the plodders as fast players but again, the plodders take a horrendously long time to make even a simple decision when necessary bringing their "average" time way up.

I am very disappointed with the nomenclature "Average Shot Time"....far too reminiscent of Pool. At the very least, it should be the Snooker proper "Average Stroke Time", but I think it would be more accurate if it were called "Average Delay between Strokes". By calling it Average Shot Time, it sounds like Lee Walker pots a Red, scratches his head for 35 seconds, then pots the Black, etc. Not true at all. He can pot four Blacks in two minutes, then take another two minutes to decide a safety to play because he ran himself out of position. Big difference. Good stat; bad name.

Lastly, again spoken strictly as a player, in general, slow players have absolutely no idea that they are slow players. It is quite an amazing lesson in psychology. Every moment they take to decide a stroke is vital and necessary, therefore, the stroke could not be played any faster than it was, therefore, they are not a slow player. No amount of evidence to the contrary can be presented to change this way of thinking. I know this from personal experience having witnessed a number of players who would make Ebdon look hasty.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Wildey

My issue with it is if they can do a pointless stat like that on live scoring why not Pot Success or Safety success % thats much more relevant.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby TheSaviour

Wildey wrote:My issue with it is if they can do a pointless stat like that on live scoring why not Pot Success or Safety success % thats much more relevant.


I would say that those 2 things depends on average shot time. The better pot success and safety succes players is having the more time he uses.

Only reasonable way would be using of some kind of compensations. If they really would wan´t to push the game forward. The time compensations. Play quicker, would receive some extra points.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby Dan-cat

SnookerFan wrote:
Wildey wrote:My issue with it is if they can do a pointless stat like that on live scoring why not Pot Success or Safety success % thats much more relevant.


Agree.


I don't think it's pointless, I think Bazza is trying to make people speed up... just a theory.

Re: World snooker publishes average shot time

Postby SnookerFan

Dan-cat wrote:I don't think it's pointless, I think Bazza is trying to make people speed up... just a theory.


I hope he isn't trying to slowly introduce shot clocks.

I doubt it somehow, but then he did make the Shootout a ranking event.